Put-In-Bay ~ Sept. 24-27, 2018 MARK YOUR CALENDARS!!!
HSR Mitty, April 27-29
NEW POSTS
One of own is injured.
by hoffman900
Today at 08:22 PM
Visually bland, lacking color or emotion, sedate & unappealing.
by onthegrid
06/10/18 11:12 PM
Vintage Racing at a Vintage Venue.
by zuzulo56
05/25/18 01:30 PM
Forum Migration to Xenforo Platform
by TopGearTech
05/22/18 03:23 PM
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#14176 - 10/01/17 08:20 PM Evolution - what does it mean... if anything
dcb Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1027
I spent Friday at Indy to watch my friend Rick run his race. By racetime on Friday Rick's car looked like it had been a victim of the local dirt track's figure eight circuit. But I'll let Rick talk about his experience. This is more about what I felt after being at the 2017 SCCA runoffs.

In a word - overwhelmed. Overwhelmed by the amount of effort and money that had filled the inside of the Indy oval. In today's SCCA - and this goes for vintage racing as well - thousands are spent almost daily by the racers. The expenditure of time and money was apparent everywhere. And fairly quickly I came to the realization that I simply can't give up either in the quantity necessary to be reasonably competitive. I get it, that's my problem and not anyone else's, but it didn't use to be this way.

I know I'm going to sound like the proverbial "old man", but hey, I am. But back when I was running nationals in the 80s, everything was simpler, much less sophisticated, and a lot cheaper. Otherwise I never could've done it, because my lifestyle has always been on the modest side.

Let me summarize a bit. For background and perspective, in 1989, I had the lap record at every track I ran at - Road America, Grattan and Blackhawk. These lap records were at tracks where many of the recent class champions ran. I was among the best and was reported in Sportscar as a favorite for the runoffs. But I quit after the June Sprints for a whole host of reasons that aren't important here.

With that as background, let me tell you about my car. First, every piece on it I made except for the front fiberglass which I got from Rick and the AutoPower roll bar that I got from Dave Giorgi at The Winners Circle. I ported the head, I made the through bore carbs, I built the engine - stock bottom end. The suspension was a combination of leaf sprints at the rear with a panhard bar and center link, and tube shocks. In the front was a home made coil over setup that used the stock shock arms, Spax shocks from a lotus and some springs I had made somewhere in Chicago. The brakes were stock drums in the rear, the MGB caliper setup in the front and a single Hurst Aerhart master which was not legal but tech never noticed. The roll bar was just that and nothing more to it. The gas tank was a stock steel original unit.

I had one set of wheels - no rains, if it rained I went home. The wheels were Compomotive - a rare splurge - that were drilled so poorly that at slow speeds the car felt like an Irish Mail bicycle. My trailer was of course an open trailer and my tow vehicle was an S10 Blazer that had serious trouble with the task.

With this I was as good as the best. Now fast forward to Indy... you get the picture. What has happened is that the whole thing has evolved to the point where you can't touch it without money, available talent and serious time commitment. There are exceptions for sure, Sargis comes to mind, but he's there - like Rick - because he never left, and his "bankroll" is knowledge, basic smarts and mechanical skills.

What I'm getting at is the pointy nature of this evolution. Fewer and fewer are willing to be good and fewer can be good. There's nothing that can be done about it, nor should there be an attempt, but there is something kind of sad about it. Kinda like watching your kid grow up and leave home.

And that's pretty much how I feel.

Dave Brown


Edited by dcb (10/02/17 01:04 AM)

Top
#14177 - 10/01/17 08:54 PM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: dcb]
hoffman900 Online   content
Champion

Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 558
Loc: New Jersey
Dave,

I'm not going to pretend I know any better because what you saw is all I know.

That said, this seems to be the case in every motorsport and just life in general.

Want to the potential to be a D1 collegiate wrestler? You better have started at 4, wrestled year round, coached. Be a D1 soccer player? Play year round, $$ coaches and camps, etc.

Want to get in somewhere on academics? Parents pay for tutoring, SAT prep courses, summers spent in academic type camps instead of working, etc.

That said, you could do what you did because the factories had moved on from your class. You wouldn't have shown up in CP and done the same at that time.

It's always been separated by the haves and the have-nots. Some slip through the cracks, but what do they give up in the process in their singular focus?

Vintage is nice because for the most part, it lets people to pretend to be the guys who dedicated their whole lives to it, who spent all their money, who never got married and had kids to focus on their passion. These people pay engine shops, prep shops, etc. And they get to put on the suit and play the part for a few days.

Lastly, your post is a good one. Well written and it's clear you've been thinking about it a lot all weekend. Hope you at least had fun.


Edited by hoffman900 (10/01/17 10:00 PM)

Top
#14351 - 01/12/18 11:54 PM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: hoffman900]
dcb Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1027
Evidence of evolution...

I passed this sight today. Time was it would've started a chain reaction of possibilities and interest, but today all I thought about was 'possum shit and fleas.



On a cheerier note, the Zetec engine is now resting properly in my Morgan chassis.




And, I'm wrapping up work on a very special XPAG motor





All things considered, life is still good.

Dave Brown

Forgot to mention, I'm also starting on another MGA Twincam engine... They are a favorite of mine.




Edited by dcb (01/12/18 11:56 PM)

Top
#14352 - 01/14/18 01:12 AM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: dcb]
zuzulo56 Offline


Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 2440
Loc: Hollywood
Originally Posted By: dcb
. My trailer was of course an open trailer and my tow vehicle was an S10 Blazer that had serious trouble with the task.

Dave Brown

Yes sir, Davie...I can easily look back to the mid-'60's, at Meadowdale & elsewhere, & how the amateur "rich guys" pulled into the venue w/their steeds on open trailers, while all the rest either dragged them there, employing tow-hitches...or drove them, being street legal, on the roads.
BTW, those 'sporting' fans, who attempted to pick-the-winners, always favored the 'Trailer Boys'. But it did not, of course, always play-out that way.
A simpler time !

[536]


Edited by zuzulo56 (01/14/18 02:08 AM)
_________________________
Ronald James Michael Marin
Hristos Anesti!...So, Be cool and play nice!



Top
#14353 - 01/14/18 10:20 AM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: dcb]
V8vairmike Offline
Winner

Registered: 05/10/14
Posts: 444

Doesnt get much simpler than this, My Dads Pinto. Lakeland Florida 1973. Car Built by my Dad and his friend Tom Wyatt at our Gas Station in Atlanta.
Single Axle trailer pulled by a Old Ford Thunderbird. Good Times !! Mike


Edited by V8vairmike (01/14/18 10:21 AM)

Top
#14363 - 01/19/18 01:18 AM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: V8vairmike]
dcb Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1027
Originally Posted By: V8vairmike

Doesnt get much simpler than this, My Dads Pinto. Lakeland Florida 1973. Car Built by my Dad and his friend Tom Wyatt at our Gas Station in Atlanta.
Single Axle trailer pulled by a Old Ford Thunderbird. Good Times !! Mike


I remember those times well. What I don't miss is lying on my back in the wet grass bleeding my clutch.

In looking over many of the posts to this site I've concluded that unless Rick is condemning SVRA or I'm reminiscing over "whats it all about" there really isn't much interest in talking about vintage race rules anymore. Kinda like few people are really interested in discussing the causes of WWI. Perhaps the matter is settled.

I suspect that the time is drawing near when only Miatas and some spec racers will show up for events - even "vintage" events. I kinda like the Miatas except for that fact that they all look and sound alike. Which is exactly what's wrong with all the spec racers. I guess my point is that unless something is done to restore some interest in the old cars they'll soon be just a memory and that memory will last only as long as the last of my generation.

Mike's Pinto photo reminds me of a time when that car raced against Datsuns, Toyotas, Alfas, BMWs, and I even remember someone racing a Plymouth Cricket in B Sedan. Miatas largely just race against Miatas. Anyway there was a little Manufacturer loyalty, pride and competition that went into making the whole thing fun to watch... fun to be a part of. And none of it was yet so complicated as to need something like a computer even if one had existed.

We reminisce about the "good old days" because they were. And vintage racing was a way to hold on to some part of them for a little while longer. I guess the problem is that there is no money in trying to do that anymore.

Working on my Morgan project has reminded me just how rewarding messing around with car parts is - I love it. All the many manageable problems to solve - decisions to make and directions to go with each element of the process... Tell me again, why do people like spec cars?

Dave Brown


Edited by dcb (01/19/18 01:30 AM)

Top
#14364 - 01/19/18 10:00 AM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: dcb]
Firebird Offline
Professional

Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 321
Originally Posted By: dcb

I suspect that the time is drawing near when only Miatas and some spec racers will show up for events - even "vintage" events. I kinda like the Miatas except for that fact that they all look and sound alike. Which is exactly what's wrong with all the spec racers. I guess my point is that unless something is done to restore some interest in the old cars they'll soon be just a memory and that memory will last only as long as the last of my generation.

Working on my Morgan project has reminded me just how rewarding messing around with car parts is - I love it. All the many manageable problems to solve - decisions to make and directions to go with each element of the process... Tell me again, why do people like spec cars?

Dave Brown


Have to run a spec'd tire, spec'd rim size, spec'd engine, spec'd trans, stock suspension, OEM style brakes...
and I'm talking about a 50 year old car running in A/S, not a modern spec car.

At 58 I'm at the tail end of the period generation, as a kid I grew up watching them run in real time, my first car was a 1968 which was just a used car back then, and even though I have a connection to them even I think the rules need to be opened up, not clamped down harder.
Allow tube a-arms, modernized suspensions, aftermarket brakes, bigger wheels and R rated tires. You want new blood and evolution, look at what SEMA offers and the crowd they cater too.
There is no place to race a Vintage car with Pro Tour type guts under it so why would any younger person want to build an antiquated piece they know nothing about and have no connection to it's period days?

I see an awful lot of grey hair at Vintage events, and very little new blood.
The theory of evolution is, you evolve and adapt or die.
_________________________
Gordon Slingerland
http://outlaw-vintage-racing.com/

Top
#14365 - 01/19/18 03:16 PM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: Firebird]
dcb Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1027
Gordon,

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not asking for a rules clampdown at all. What I am suggesting is that a renewed commitment to the older cars is necessary if we don't want to lose them forever... or maybe just prematurely.

There is still a viable and active amount of interest in these cars at the grass roots, but there is definitely a declining "display" of interest in them at the organization level. I truly think that "promote them and they will come" is a truism, and that that ain't what's happening.

I agree that time is running out for the older cars, but they're a long way from dead yet. To use your reference to the theory of evolution you must remember that the course of evolution is only visible looking backward. What that means is that there is no way of knowing how successfully anything will evolve ahead of time, the proof being that evolutionary history is full of dead ends. Adapt and die is equally true to adapt or die.

Just a little mid-winter argumentation.

Dave Brown


Edited by dcb (01/21/18 11:35 PM)

Top
#14366 - 01/20/18 11:20 AM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: Firebird]
JFW Offline


Registered: 01/16/11
Posts: 2132
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Firebird



At 58 I'm at the tail end of the period generation, as a kid I grew up watching them run in real time, my first car was a 1968 which was just a used car back then, and even though I have a connection to them even I think the rules need to be opened up, not clamped down harder.

Allow tube a-arms, modernized suspensions, aftermarket brakes, bigger wheels and R rated tires. You want new blood and evolution, look at what SEMA offers and the crowd they cater too.
There is no place to race a Vintage car with Pro Tour type guts under it so why would any younger person want to build an antiquated piece they know nothing about and have no connection to it's period days?

I see an awful lot of grey hair at Vintage events, and very little new blood.
The theory of evolution is, you evolve and adapt or die.


With Ground Hog Day fast approaching, here we are again.....

Contrary to certain perceptions, there are quite a few organizations that continue to have healthy turnouts, in spite of aging members and "antiquated" rules sets. VDCA, VSCDA, VRG, HSR and yes, SVRA plus unnamed West Coast clubs come to mind.

I don't see anyone (club) even discussing the "opening up" of existing period rules. My opinion is that these rules have been in place in one form or another for many years and it would be unfair, as long as there are folks abiding by them, to suddenly jerk them away to satisfy latecomers to the party.

That is a totally different subject than creating new groups, classes and rules platforms to accommodate newer cars and perhaps the kind of car that Gordon cherishes.
_________________________
Jack Woehrle

Top
#14367 - 01/20/18 11:34 AM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: JFW]
Doug Meis Offline
Winner

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 401
Loc: NC
Originally Posted By: JFW


Contrary to certain perceptions, there are quite a few organizations that continue to have healthy turnouts, in spite of aging members and "antiquated" rules sets. VDCA, VSCDA, VRG, HSR and yes, SVRA plus unnamed West Coast clubs come to mind.

I don't see anyone (club) even discussing the "opening up" of existing period rules. My opinion is that these rules have been in place in one form or another for many years and it would be unfair, as long as there are folks abiding by them, to suddenly jerk them away to satisfy latecomers to the party.

That is a totally different subject than creating new groups, classes and rules platforms to accommodate newer cars and perhaps the kind of car that Gordon cherishes.


^^This. The trick is finding a balance where the newer and/or different cars can blend in with existing cars and customers. It's why we have our Group 6OV ("Outlaw Vintage") class so Gordon and friends can bring their cool muscle cars out to play with us.

Top
#14368 - 01/20/18 12:04 PM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: dcb]
JFW Offline


Registered: 01/16/11
Posts: 2132
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: dcb

In looking over many of the posts to this site I've concluded that unless Rick is condemning SVRA or I'm reminiscing over "whats it all about" there really isn't much interest in talking about vintage race rules anymore. Kinda like few people are really interested in discussing the causes of WWI. Perhaps the matter is settled.

I suspect that the time is drawing near when only Miatas and some spec racers will show up for events - even "vintage" events. I kinda like the Miatas except for that fact that they all look and sound alike. Which is exactly what's wrong with all the spec racers. I guess my point is that unless something is done to restore some interest in the old cars they'll soon be just a memory and that memory will last only as long as the last of my generation.

Mike's Pinto photo reminds me of a time when that car raced against Datsuns, Toyotas, Alfas, BMWs, and I even remember someone racing a Plymouth Cricket in B Sedan. Miatas largely just race against Miatas. Anyway there was a little Manufacturer loyalty, pride and competition that went into making the whole thing fun to watch... fun to be a part of. And none of it was yet so complicated as to need something like a computer even if one had existed.

We reminisce about the "good old days" because they were. And vintage racing was a way to hold on to some part of them for a little while longer.


The unique aspect of nostalgia driven hobbies or passions is that a nostalgic time period is very specific to folks who witnessed the subject period in real time, for the most part. At both fringes, there are overlaps into the previous or following periods. Other interests and the ability to participate play a significant role in strength in these eras.

Younger people usually do not begin to get nostalgic about anything until into their ~ forties. This applies to music, fashion styles, furniture or cars. In addition to that assessment, probably less than ~ 25% of the general population ever get the "bug."

We must accept the fact that when the peak of an era passes, it will be a downhill slide, and no amount of "promoting" will do much to stop the bleeding.

The interesting part of the trend in vintage racing to me is that these so called "spec" classes have little or no intrinsic interest. Sports 2000s all look alike to me. Miata's are great cars for performance and reliability, but most of my generation don't see anything appealing. A Miata is a tool to be consumed in order to participate in very exciting racing without having to spend hours, days or years in seemingly tedious restorations and rebuilding. Jeeze...that actually starts to make sense all of a sudden.

Cheers,




_________________________
Jack Woehrle

Top
#14369 - 01/20/18 01:15 PM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: dcb]
dcb Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1027
I know that my views on the subject are not common, but for me there is an intellectual and emotional attachment to racing. I'm not a pro driver with loyalties only to my career and success. I'm an amateur who once owned a car I liked and decided to race it. I like the car. I like the process of developing it into a race car. I like improving on it. I like to test it against other cars of similar size and power.... and I like to test myself against the drivers of those cars.

That's really all there is to it, except that subliminally there is a humanistic attachment to something that was made by man. It's kind of like comparing this to a Miata engine - grossly inferior, but infinitely more fascinating.



Dave Brown


Edited by dcb (01/21/18 11:34 PM)

Top
#14370 - 01/20/18 01:22 PM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: dcb]
JimG Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/01/11
Posts: 55
Loc: Aurora, CO
I agree with everything you said Jack. There is a lot of appeal to racing a spec miata for many, I can race one for a lot less money than my TR4, I've raced SM so I know. However, I have a deep sentimental attachment to the TR4 as it was my dad's last street car. With that I'll always race it.
A little off topic, if I was in the business of making Miata's more attractive to race. Keep the current rule set for SM except body work, wheels and tires FREE.
If you could do anything you want what would a Miata look like then ?
Could you generate some interest from millenials with that ?
jim g

Top
#14371 - 01/20/18 03:21 PM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: dcb]
ProCoach Offline
Champion

Registered: 01/15/11
Posts: 710
Loc: Virginia International Raceway
Dave, I just think you like to compose your mellifluously written posts! laugh

Seriously, as a long time Prod car guy fond of "off-brands," I took peculiar pleasure in beating up on "established" (usually British) sports cars in both SCCA and historic racing. If it was Porsches, even better! That sustained me and outweighed the pain and suffering of long hours of preparation for a few moments of bliss on the racetrack.

I worked in a Fiat dealership and bought my first Alfa shortly thereafter. But I remember seeing a sleek sports racing car driven by Pete Harrison at the first SCCA Regional I attended at Rockingham in 1981. It was a Tiga Sports 2000.

It took me twenty years to buy my first one, and it happened to have parts of that very car (including the logbook), but the progression to purpose built racing cars only happened after starting in an H car, then a G car, then an F car, to a B Sedan. It was fun racing the Prod cars, but the Sports 2000 car really touched the driver nerve for me.

The fixed spec of the engine appealed for economy and longevity, not to mention equality in power over the field, but the plethora of established, REAL race car builders like Chevron, Swift, Lola, Tiga, March, in a folded aluminum sheet monocoque chassis, glued and riveted together like an airplane fuselage, was spaceshot stuff for a dyed-in-wool Prod car guy.

They're pretty cool and keep my attention fifteen years after I first drove one...
_________________________
-Peter Krause
Professional Race Instruction and Coaching
Data and Video Sales, Interpretation and Training
"The Driver is the Greatest Performance Variable"
www.peterkrause.net

Top
#14372 - 01/21/18 10:09 AM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: dcb]
V8vairmike Offline
Winner

Registered: 05/10/14
Posts: 444
A DN4 would be a nice spec racer !! I can see the draw to a Miata or Sports 2000. Late nights building everything does wear on you after a while.
As far as the younger ,i mean late teens,early 20s you can find them at a Drift event. Tons of track time for $75 ! Unless you got a rich dad these kids wont be paying a $600 plus entry fee anytime soon. At First i didnt get it but after attending multiple events,seeing 4 or 5 cars nose to tail sideways it really is fun, Can you say Car Control !!! Anyway Vintage racing will survive,as long as there are the VDCA and VRGs to keep cost down ill be doing it for a while and Im sure once Eli takes a lap around Road Atlanta he will be hooked the rest of his Life !!!
Mike

Top
#14373 - 01/21/18 11:58 PM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: ProCoach]
dcb Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1027
Originally Posted By: ProCoach
Dave, I just think you like to compose your mellifluously written posts! laugh


True enough I suppose, but there wasn't much happening on the site and I did inject a little life back into it.

The Morgan progresses.



But I need to start addressing some stuff with the Midget. Last year was the strangest and most disappointing one I can remember. Six starts and only one checkered flag. Weird stuff like fancy electronic gauges that quit working. Ignition systems that quit working. And of course one destroyed engine.... and all the while being a back marker.

You pick up some bad habits as a back marker. The worst of them for me was that I stopped being aggressive. I mean what's the point of fighting for eighth place? You get a kind of competitive laziness. You give the guy the inside line, or you don't try to dive under him while braking, you just start thinking "whatever".

I've got a lot to work on if I'm going to crawl out of this hole. I'm going to focus on the short tracks. I think if and when everything works they're going to be where the car can compete. And I think I can still drive them well enough.

"adapt or die" right?

Dave Brown

Top
#14374 - 01/22/18 02:20 PM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: ProCoach]
Doug Meis Offline
Winner

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 401
Loc: NC
Originally Posted By: ProCoach
Dave, I just think you like to compose your mellifluously written posts! laugh

Seriously, as a long time Prod car guy fond of "off-brands," I took peculiar pleasure in beating up on "established" (usually British) sports cars in both SCCA and historic racing. If it was Porsches, even better! That sustained me and outweighed the pain and suffering of long hours of preparation for a few moments of bliss on the racetrack.

I worked in a Fiat dealership and bought my first Alfa shortly thereafter. But I remember seeing a sleek sports racing car driven by Pete Harrison at the first SCCA Regional I attended at Rockingham in 1981. It was a Tiga Sports 2000.

It took me twenty years to buy my first one, and it happened to have parts of that very car (including the logbook), but the progression to purpose built racing cars only happened after starting in an H car, then a G car, then an F car, to a B Sedan. It was fun racing the Prod cars, but the Sports 2000 car really touched the driver nerve for me.

The fixed spec of the engine appealed for economy and longevity, not to mention equality in power over the field, but the plethora of established, REAL race car builders like Chevron, Swift, Lola, Tiga, March, in a folded aluminum sheet monocoque chassis, glued and riveted together like an airplane fuselage, was spaceshot stuff for a dyed-in-wool Prod car guy.

They're pretty cool and keep my attention fifteen years after I first drove one...


^^ Yep

I've followed Peter's path from autocross to small-bore vintage, taking great pride in building, tweaking and racing 850cc of G-Prod Honda S800 to harass and occasionally beat the F-Prod cars.

Then on to Formula Ford with fixed spec engine in a purpose built open wheel racer. When I was 10 years old watching the June Sprints, I would not have begun to imagine that I would one day be out there on the track. The guys "on the other side of the fence" were SO cool - they were Racers!

So it was amazing just to be out there. Stepping up to the FF is, like Peter says "spaceshot stuff". And there is plenty of competition to keep the driver in me on my toes.

Top
#14396 - 01/25/18 07:27 AM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: dcb]
Hap Waldrop Offline
Champion

Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 802
Loc: Greenville, SC
Interesting thread.

Jack you are right the youngster of vintage for the most part are in their 40's with the exception of few second generation drivers.

Peter everytime I see your Tiga, it reminds me of good friend Les Parker, that man taught me alot, and I will never forget him.

Doug, know from where you and Mike sit, the VDCA has evolved a lot in the past few years, but I think it was necessary to open up vintage, and you guys were very smart to do this. Jack has did similar things with the HSR.

Dave, I like you was raised in the SCCA, I had my 23rd birthday while at Skippy school, the following year I started racing prod in the SCCA, the following year I raced in my first runoffs. I have no ill feelings for the SCCA, but it not where I want to race anymore, it is a different world than the one I grew up in. Oh yeah I think from time to time about throwing fiberglass fenders and making a run at the runoffs with the MGB in HP. However, I can't turn back the hands of time, and don't want to race SCCA anymore. The only thing major about a SCCA major is the name, you still race against 4-5 guys all year long to have one good race at the runoffs, vintage offers me way more than that without all the fuss. I got plenty of friends still trying to race their Spridget in the SCCA, and I tell them all the time, you guys don't know what you are missing, and I guess they are set in their ways, and will never change. I talked to Jeff the new owner of the Winners Circle yesterday, I told him, "don't you waste one minute of your time on SCCA Spridget racers, you will go broke on them, vintage racing, and street is where your money will be". I guess I maybe do a couple of jobs for SCCA racer a year now, mind you this shop was opened in 2000 for SCCA Spridget racing, now I do high end street performance and vintage race engines, the last SCCA race engine I did was three years ago for LP 1275 HP Spridget. Heck like Huffaker, 5-6 years ago, Joe was clueless to vintage racing, I know we talked about it, now his shop is full of vintage work, and I doubt he does that much LBC SCCA work anymore, other than his own stuff and few followers. Look at Broan Linn, he races whatever car he thing will do good in a given class these days, in the past decade, that has included a MGB, a Spridget, and Lotus but it also included a Honda, and Miata. Brain leans towards LBCs when he thinks it is the car for the class, and that given runoffs venue, but is smart enough to know when to vary from it. Even Steve seems to struggle in GTL with his Spitfire. Funny how the SCCA tried to get rid of us for so many years, and in the end it won't be their rules that ran us off, it will just be time.


Edited by Hap Waldrop (01/25/18 07:39 AM)
_________________________
Hap Waldrop
Acme Speed Shop 864-370-3000
www.acmespeedshop.com
MG/Triumph Performance Street/Race Engines
The Vintage Production Car Festival
https://www.facebook.com/vintageproductioncarfestival

Top
#14401 - 01/25/18 11:59 PM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: Hap Waldrop]
dcb Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1027
Hap,

I think you've touched on all the relative stuff regarding SCCA in the modern era. And you know, I kinda feel like I'm straddling both worlds (Vintage and SCCA) and not really committed to one or the other.

Here's how I see the two of them. I like the SCCA events because I can race to the best of my ability and that's what's expected from everyone else on the track - none of the 8/10s crap that always makes me think someone is looking over my shoulder. The SCCA races have reasonable entry fees and are mostly two day events - I like that, I'm ready to head home after 48 hours. SCCA has really streamlined race entries and registration to the point where it's almost impossible to realize this is at all related to the anti-racer organization I quit some 40 years ago. If I've anything negative to say it's that the events are somewhat light on entries, and the atmosphere in the paddock is not as relaxed as a typical vintage event.

Vintage racing is a little too pointless - by that I mean literally there's no particular reason to be there except to play with your car. That's cool, but it makes you feel like everything is practice and not a race. I definitely enjoyed the vintage atmosphere and maybe that's only possible because of the former point. And vintage racing is too often a three-day event and as mentioned that doesn't really appeal to me.

My car, and my age make me a more likely vintage racing candidate, but at the moment I just can't get worked up about it. When there was a strong group 1 in SVRA I don't think I ever had more fun racing, but that's not the case anymore. So now I guess I'm just going to have to find a way to keep from getting beat up by the FP Miatas and keep my emphasis on racing with the SCCA.

Dave Brown


Edited by dcb (01/26/18 08:02 AM)

Top
#14402 - 01/26/18 12:49 AM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: dcb]
rick haynes
Unregistered


"When there was a strong group 1 in SVRA"

When was that? It seems like a long long time ago.

rick haynes

Top
#14405 - 01/26/18 07:59 AM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: dcb]
Doug Meis Offline
Winner

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 401
Loc: NC
"8/10s crap". That's not what I tell people in the drivers meeting. I tell the they are free to race as hard and fast as they want - within their abilities and without hitting anyone or thing. I also carry on a bit about being cooperative rather than fighting their fellow competitors so that's a bit different from all-out, no holds barred racing but I never say limit yourself to 8/10s.

the strong Group 1 field has moved over to VDCA grin

Top
#14406 - 01/26/18 08:03 AM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: dcb]
Hap Waldrop Offline
Champion

Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 802
Loc: Greenville, SC
Dave, sometimes I think it is a just a moment in time deal, who are you racing with in that time frame. See this glory days you remember at the SVRA group 1 races, for me are happening right now in group 3 with the guys I race with, good size fields, good drivers, fast cars with groups like the VDCA and VRG.

Dave you ever been to MGVR focus race, other than the Collier Cup. A few years ago at the MGVR focus event at Waterford Hill,s there was red Midget there, looked very SCCA pre flare correct, reminded me of Derek Chima's Midget, it was red as well, the driver was form CA, Bill Greenman he waxed everyone in that race, he drove smooth as silk.
_________________________
Hap Waldrop
Acme Speed Shop 864-370-3000
www.acmespeedshop.com
MG/Triumph Performance Street/Race Engines
The Vintage Production Car Festival
https://www.facebook.com/vintageproductioncarfestival

Top
#14407 - 01/26/18 10:07 AM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: Doug Meis]
dcb Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1027
Originally Posted By: Doug Meis

the strong Group 1 field has moved over to VDCA grin


Doug,

I get that, but it's hardly a local club for me to race with.

Getting back to an earlier point I was bringing up, my car with log books that go back to the mid-70s is not currently vintage legal. I knew that when I bought it, so I'm not crying about it. But I do think that there needs to be a way for these "end of the century" SCCA cars - and there are many of them - to be considered "vintage legal".

My car has tons of actually history behind it - over 40 years worth - and one thing that I noticed at the events I ran last year was that quite a few folks remember it and Bob Hubbard. For that reason I have no interest in doing anything with it other than to leave it as it is and do the best with it that I can.

But I hope that someone in charge sees the absurdity of not recognizing that this, and the many cars like it, should be accepted with open arms into the vintage racing format... exception granted to JFW who has seen it all along.

Dave Brown

Top
#14408 - 01/26/18 01:06 PM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: dcb]
WSR00 Offline
Wannabe

Registered: 01/26/18
Posts: 2
Racing of any sort is not the only thing in my life. I do enjoy it immensely and hope that the coming years will be kind to me to allow trips to the track when I have time.
I crank wrenches because I have to keep costs down, but I don't enter the realm of excessive compulsive race car development--that's OK if it toots your horn.
My life has been more than a little challenging/exciting before I finally got my first race car(46years old) so going to a weekend of driving my race cars is my weekend at the amusement park and a chance to hang out at a saloon with some of my best chums.
Don't care what types of cars are beginning to poke their noses under the tent, I am having a great time. And that is the real point isn't it?

Top
#14412 - 01/27/18 10:36 AM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: dcb]
V8vairmike Offline
Winner

Registered: 05/10/14
Posts: 444
The Front half of the field at any event ive been to is never 8/10s, its wide Open !!

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

VARA News
Who's Online
2 registered (hoffman900, dynalead), 301 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Bosco, Nick6981, Scaniasteve, JuanBecker, 1000beats
757 Registered Users