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#14150 - 09/27/17 01:35 PM Re: Did I miss the bigger picture? [Re: JFW]
zuzulo56 Offline
Hall of Fame

Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 2411
Loc: Hollywood
Originally Posted By: JFW


This place would have dried up years ago if it weren't for Rick and his drivel.


Sure 'nough, the gent CAN get the juices flowin'...& the dander up !...as can that ole-boy, 'PC'.
I like it !


[918]


Edited by zuzulo56 (09/28/17 03:52 AM)
_________________________
Ronald James Michael Marin
Hristos Anesti!...So, Be cool and play nice!



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#14151 - 09/28/17 12:22 AM Re: Did I miss the bigger picture? [Re: ProCoach]
dcb Offline
Champion

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 989
Originally Posted By: ProCoach
Rick, continue to suck at the RunOffs and leave the rest of us to enjoy our racing.


FYI Rick is continuing to "suck" at the Runoffs. He is currently 12th in a field of 42. About 1 sec from 6th and a little more than 2 sec from the pole... Man, does he suck or what? Think how bad the 30 guys behind him must suck. Or for that matter, the other 800 or so guys who aren't in the first 6 rows of their class. Do they know they suck too?

I've not yet heard how ProCoach is doing...

Dave Brown

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#14152 - 09/28/17 04:15 AM Re: Did I miss the bigger picture? [Re: rick haynes]
hoffman900 Offline
Champion

Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 539
Loc: New Jersey
"man drama" crazy

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#14153 - 09/28/17 08:47 AM Re: Did I miss the bigger picture? [Re: dcb]
Cheese Head Offline
Amateur racer

Registered: 01/21/11
Posts: 107
Loc: Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: dcb
Originally Posted By: ProCoach
Rick, continue to suck at the RunOffs and leave the rest of us to enjoy our racing.


FYI Rick is continuing to "suck" at the Runoffs. He is currently 12th in a field of 42. About 1 sec from 6th and a little more than 2 sec from the pole... Man, does he suck or what? Think how bad the 30 guys behind him must suck. Or for that matter, the other 800 or so guys who aren't in the first 6 rows of their class. Do they know they suck too?

I've not yet heard how ProCoach is doing...

Dave Brown


Krause is a legend in his mind....having never been to the runoffs himself.
_________________________
John Roswell
Waldo, WI

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#14154 - 09/28/17 10:12 AM Re: Did I miss the bigger picture? [Re: rick haynes]
ProCoach Online   content
Champion

Registered: 01/15/11
Posts: 702
Loc: Virginia International Raceway
Thanks, John. I'll remember that.

And when I initially made that observation, it was true. Now? Not so much.

Whatever I think of Rick personally though his long and storied career in Club racing and elsewhere, his performance in Q3 was a good one. Best of luck to him.

Jack, this forum had such great potential, but much of it's potential value has been overshadowed by the variety and plethora of name-calling, trolling and otherwise counterproductive posts, principally by one or two people.

I don't need to heed the DRTC warning on the home page, I've got a thick skin, but the fact that you felt the need to put it up there shows that you too lament the tone taken, sometimes...

Back to your regularly scheduled bitchfest. At least it's quiet while he's racing...
_________________________
-Peter Krause
Professional Race Instruction and Coaching
Data and Video Sales, Interpretation and Training
"The Driver is the Greatest Performance Variable"
www.peterkrause.net

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#14155 - 09/28/17 07:49 PM Re: Did I miss the bigger picture? [Re: ProCoach]
dcb Offline
Champion

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 989
Originally Posted By: ProCoach
Back to your regularly scheduled bitchfest. At least it's quiet while he's racing...


Hey, come on, what about me?

The thing about ProCoach is that he gives and good as he gets and I sort of enjoy sparring with him. However at this point I should point out that most likely Rick and he are in agreement about Rick's performance sucking. Rick is his harshest critic and he knows he's not doing as well as he should.

Putting that on the back burner for the moment and getting to one of the other of ProCoaches points, what should the topics on this forum be? I think that bitching about stuff is a pretty normal racing community thing to do, but I agree that it shouldn't be the dominant thread, so... what should be? And why isn't it happening.

I don't think you can lay this all on Rick or me. In fact I've brought up a host of other stuff. My instincts are that for the moment vintage racing interest has run out of air. And to some extent I do blame SVRA. SVRA was the standard class-act in vintage. The anchor which gave a certain level of security to participants. The morphing that has occurred over the past few years has created the opposite effect - insecurity. This is primarily because no one can figure out what their mission is anymore - where are they headed and what will be left behind.

For many of us this hobby is our primary - our only - avocation, and currently it seems very unclear where it's headed. I'm not simply picking on vintage racing here, I also wonder about SCCA and all the other road racing umbrella groups. There no longer appears to be a foundation you can rely on and focus on. The cars and the drivers are there, but with a dwindling sense of purpose. Yes, I know, there are nearly a 1000 cars at Indy this week, but that's the point. They are there for the track and its history and not because it's the conclusion of a season of a hotly contested points races to qualify. Hell, I qualified and I only saw one checkered flag all season.

I think for the moment the oxygen has left the room and that in turn is showing up on this forum - there's nothing to talk about.

Just my thoughts.

Dave Brown

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#14156 - 09/28/17 08:39 PM Re: Did I miss the bigger picture? [Re: rick haynes]
Firebird Offline
Professional

Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 312
I used to enjoy posting about ways to grow and encourage new people to get into Vintage racing, and not just here. But when every idea gets shot down by the powers that be it becomes pointless so there's nothing new to post.
Vintage by definition means a period of origin or manufacture, so if it's 50 years old and period Vintage, there's nothing new to talk about.
I believe there should be openly encouraged evolution of Vintage racing, not don't ask, don't tell, wink wink.

I was the ONLY Pony car at Road Atlanta a couple weeks ago, when has that ever happened? Only something like 6-8 at VIR last week? You lose the Pony cars you've lost the spectators and the interest of younger people.
Being the only one there I had a hard time getting work done on my car between session so many people came by snapping pictures and asking questions, it was fun seeing the really young kids eyes light up when they saw a car similar to their dads street car.
They can relate to Pony cars, arguably the hottest trend in Vintage Motoring these days with Pro Tour, Optima Challenges, Sema build offs, etc...

We need to build the Pony car ranks back up, not a problem at Marquee events because the big money guys will go to them, but we're losing the truck and trailer guys that used to attend the average events.
_________________________
Gordon Slingerland
http://outlaw-vintage-racing.com/

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#14157 - 09/29/17 03:29 AM Re: Did I miss the bigger picture? [Re: dcb]
zuzulo56 Offline
Hall of Fame

Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 2411
Loc: Hollywood
Originally Posted By: dcb

"...no one can figure out what their mission is anymore - where are they headed and what will be left behind".

Dave Brown


WHO will be left behind.


[1201]


Edited by zuzulo56 (09/29/17 03:31 AM)
_________________________
Ronald James Michael Marin
Hristos Anesti!...So, Be cool and play nice!



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#14158 - 09/29/17 06:16 AM Re: Did I miss the bigger picture? [Re: rick haynes]
Hap Waldrop Offline
Champion

Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 773
Loc: Greenville, SC
Yep Rick is sucking for sure, and so is my old friend Dick May, he is DFL in HP, at the ripe old age of 82 years old, and you know what, I wish I was sucking right there with them smile
_________________________
Hap Waldrop
Acme Speed Shop 864-370-3000
www.acmespeedshop.com
MG/Triumph Performance Street/Race Engines
The Vintage Production Car Festival
https://www.facebook.com/vintageproductioncarfestival

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#14160 - 09/29/17 07:34 AM Re: Did I miss the bigger picture? [Re: zuzulo56]
Doug Meis Online   content
Professional

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 381
Loc: NC
Originally Posted By: zuzulo56
Originally Posted By: dcb

"...no one can figure out what their mission is anymore - where are they headed and what will be left behind".

Dave Brown


WHO will be left behind.


[1201]


Isn't that bus a little too long?... wink laugh


Edited by Doug Meis (09/29/17 07:34 AM)

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#14161 - 09/29/17 07:40 AM Re: Did I miss the bigger picture? [Re: dcb]
ProCoach Online   content
Champion

Registered: 01/15/11
Posts: 702
Loc: Virginia International Raceway
Originally Posted By: dcb


Hey, come on, what about me?

getting to one of the other of ProCoaches points, what should the topics on this forum be? I think that bitching about stuff is a pretty normal racing community thing to do, but I agree that it shouldn't be the dominant thread, so... what should be? And why isn't it happening.

For many of us this hobby is our primary - our only - avocation, and currently it seems very unclear where it's headed.

I'm not simply picking on vintage racing here, I also wonder about SCCA and all the other road racing umbrella groups. There no longer appears to be a foundation you can rely on and focus on. The cars and the drivers are there, but with a dwindling sense of purpose.

I think for the moment the oxygen has left the room and that in turn is showing up on this forum - there's nothing to talk about.

Just my thoughts.

Dave Brown


laugh You go without saying!

Very good points all, Dave.

I enjoy the technical discussions, the videos, the help that people give each other here. I don't enjoy "the broken record" routines I've come to expect, the redirect of the world's evil to one person or one group. That's bull.

For me, I began substituting SCCA for where you and Rick use another alphabet soup, SVRA, a long time ago. Club racing was the only game in town, and while it was fun, and good, their National program been decimated by a plethora of other, generally more regionally based choices. NASA, BMWCCA, PCA, POC, now WRL, AER and Lemons/Chumpcar, just about all draw as much or more spectator, participant and commercial interest than all of vintage/historic combined. Gordon has a good point.

There's too many choices, too many specifications, too many race groups within a weekend, just like SCCA, other groups have diluted their foundation down so much, it's hard for new folks to navigate the entry...

I don't know the answer, but I do care. And I think most folks on this board do, too.
_________________________
-Peter Krause
Professional Race Instruction and Coaching
Data and Video Sales, Interpretation and Training
"The Driver is the Greatest Performance Variable"
www.peterkrause.net

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#14162 - 09/29/17 07:53 AM Re: Did I miss the bigger picture? [Re: rick haynes]
Doug Meis Online   content
Professional

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 381
Loc: NC
Reading the comments of DCB and Firebird reminds me that vintage racing is a very tribal community. No one seems to think that "vintage racing" is doing well unless their tribe has healthy numbers at an event.

DCB's tribe is small bore in general and F-Prod in particular. That tribe used to produce 60 car grids at some events. Those days are gone and not coming back.

Firebird's tribe is Pony cars. They can and do produce big grids but generally it is the big events that seem to appeal to their tribe.

If you ask Hap Waldrop, he'll tell you that Group 3 cars are quite popular these days and the E-Prod class alone often has 10 plus cars at an event with 4-5 of them fighting for the win. Don't tell those guys that the "air has left the room".

Pro Coach's weapon of choice is currently an S2000. Their tribe is alive and well and big fields will show up at events with an S2000 focus or points race.

I can go on with ore tribes and their relative health for different events or in the bigger picture of vintage racing overall. The point is that it can be difficult that have an objective view of what is good for "vintage racing" beyond what it will mean for your tribe. For event organizers, the challenge is to put together events that will appeal to multiple tribes in order to have the overall numbers.

OK, back to the bitchfest. And good luck to Rick Haynes at the Run-offs.

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#14163 - 09/29/17 08:48 AM Re: Did I miss the bigger picture? [Re: Doug Meis]
Firebird Offline
Professional

Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 312
Originally Posted By: Doug Meis
Reading the comments of DCB and Firebird reminds me that vintage racing is a very tribal community. No one seems to think that "vintage racing" is doing well unless their tribe has healthy numbers at an event.

Firebird's tribe is Pony cars. They can and do produce big grids but generally it is the big events that seem to appeal to their tribe.


After 10 years of this I've seen a distinct drop in truck and trailer Pony cars at regular events. I can name a half dozen guys I know that stopped going, parked or sold everything. Now it's mostly the same stabled cars at Marquee events with a few independents since it is a Marquee event.
Why is open to debate and interpretation.

But, when I start seeing grids of Modern cars, E30's and Miata's at Vintage events, and no Pony cars, there's a problem.
_________________________
Gordon Slingerland
http://outlaw-vintage-racing.com/

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#14164 - 09/29/17 01:42 PM Re: Did I miss the bigger picture? [Re: rick haynes]
JimG Offline
Novice

Registered: 02/01/11
Posts: 47
Loc: Aurora, CO
For many it's a matter of economics or bang for your buck.
Over the years the average person gets less and less time in the seat at the big events such as SVRA type. It was said SVRA made some inquiries in Colorado/RMVR
about hosting an SVRA race here. It hasn't happened yet and generally we don't want them, don't need them. It will only result in far more expense for far less seat time.
Granted, our High Plains Raceway is no Road America, Watkins Glen or VIR but we built it and we own it. It has been a roaring success financialy with constant facilities upgrades.
We get tons of seat time with generally five run groups for a $ 275.00 sign up fee.
We actually have three tracks in Colorado but HPR is owned by the clubs.
I love the big wine & cheeze events but I just can't afford very many of them
and at this point have no interest in the SVRA events.
I think our best defense is to keep the small clubs and club tracks healthy and let
the big for profit events sort themselves out.
I don't have anything personal against SVRA except they keep adding more and more modern cars and forcing out a lot of little old guys like me. There is little or no value for me, mostly because I just don't have money & time to burn for a few minutes in the seat after a long pull to one of their events.
jg

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#14169 - 09/30/17 07:39 AM Re: Did I miss the bigger picture? [Re: rick haynes]
Hap Waldrop Offline
Champion

Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 773
Loc: Greenville, SC
Good Post Doug, yes it is hard for one to get past their own interest in the sport.
_________________________
Hap Waldrop
Acme Speed Shop 864-370-3000
www.acmespeedshop.com
MG/Triumph Performance Street/Race Engines
The Vintage Production Car Festival
https://www.facebook.com/vintageproductioncarfestival

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#14174 - 09/30/17 01:29 PM Re: Did I miss the bigger picture? [Re: JimG]
zuzulo56 Offline
Hall of Fame

Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 2411
Loc: Hollywood
Originally Posted By: JimG

I love the big wine & cheeze events...
jg


My eyes-and-ears in Colo., (Mom & Sis, from outta Colo. Springs), assure me that some of the good ole mountain boys even begin with the W & C before the starters'-flag is dropped. They sure DO love that cheese!


[1405]



Edited by zuzulo56 (09/30/17 01:36 PM)
_________________________
Ronald James Michael Marin
Hristos Anesti!...So, Be cool and play nice!



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#14187 - 10/05/17 12:21 AM Re: Did I miss the bigger picture? [Re: rick haynes]
rick haynes Offline
Amateur racer

Registered: 09/15/13
Posts: 174
Had some time to review the comments of the last week and the one from pro-boy
was interesting. It seems to imply my mediocre performance at the runnoffs some how invalidates my criticisms of his boss, Tony.
Not the case pro-boy, we are all responsible for our failures and attempting to blame SVRA's problems on me ,as Tony and you do, just shows how little you two understand the situation SVRA is in.
I recommend more self refection and less finger pointing.

rick haynes


Edited by rick haynes (10/05/17 12:23 AM)

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#14193 - 10/14/17 07:36 PM Re: Did I miss the bigger picture? [Re: rick haynes]
rick haynes Offline
Amateur racer

Registered: 09/15/13
Posts: 174
And on the topic of the flicked tastes of the current vintage racers. Does any one have a entry count on the svra COTA race? In the past svra had the entry list on their web-site but I don't see it now. I have to wonder given this years numbers at svra races in general if it will top the 350 from last year?, real vintage cars that is. How about it pro-boy, call your boss and see what the count is so far?

rick haynes

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#14197 - 10/16/17 02:57 PM Re: Did I miss the bigger picture? [Re: rick haynes]
Rus'L Online   content
Novice

Registered: 06/17/14
Posts: 49
Loc: Rochester, NY
It's a little early for the entry list to be posted. Usually it appears a week or so before the event.

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#14200 - 10/17/17 03:09 PM Re: Did I miss the bigger picture? [Re: rick haynes]
Rus'L Online   content
Novice

Registered: 06/17/14
Posts: 49
Loc: Rochester, NY
What do you know, COTA's entry list is now posted. More than two weeks prior. I guess I was wrong ... and others aren't as patient in ripping off blasts when they can...

Discounting IGT (16) and TA cars, I count 312. We'll see how much that changes as the event approaches.


Edited by Rus'L (10/17/17 03:12 PM)

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