WARNING !!!!
Put-In-Bay ~ Sept. 24-27, 2018 MARK YOUR CALENDARS!!!
December
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
NEW POSTS
IT'S B-A-C-K !
by zuzulo56
12/08/17 01:48 AM
Did I miss the bigger picture?
by rick haynes
12/05/17 02:22 PM
Track Day Zone
by TrackDayZone
12/05/17 01:09 PM
TATRA T603...etc.
by zuzulo56
12/04/17 11:42 AM
2017 Goodwood Revival
by zuzulo56
12/02/17 02:33 PM
FIA Homologation Forms for 3250+ cars released
by JFW
12/01/17 11:49 AM
2017 Vintage HANDICAP Race: Muscle Cars fr. New Zealand
by zuzulo56
11/28/17 12:01 AM
I sold my shop building, now what :)
by Mike U.
11/27/17 09:37 AM
A new class idea?
by hoffman900
11/27/17 07:49 AM
11 Months on the grid. Waterford Hills turns 60 next year.
by Doug Escriva
11/17/17 05:04 PM
A Happening On That Race Track Called 'Freeway'
by Amélie Renoncule
11/12/17 12:49 PM
Eight 20x8x13 Hoosier Rains - $550
by ezanner
11/11/17 02:51 PM
Page 4 of 4 < 1 2 3 4
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#14254 - 11/09/17 10:09 AM Re: Did I miss the bigger picture? [Re: dynalead]
dcb Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1009
Originally Posted By: dynalead
And if racers are not complaining within a class, leave them alone, they will sort of themselves....

Well said.


Ditto that!

This is apt to ramble a bit because I don't really have a clear objective to this post. Years ago - probably sometime in the 80s - I was first made aware of vintage racing through a close friend. My initial reaction to this introduction was that these guys are a bunch of wannabe woosies. What was all this about no passing in the turns and driving at 8/10ths? It was to my mind something like the way kids think about sex - well used to anyway.

Then of course there was some pretty self serving rule sets that allowed some eye-candy stuff all under the guise of it would be more reliable. Anyway, right off the bat most of what plagues vintage racing was set in stone - at least in the minds of those who were involved and in those of us on the outside witnessing it. To this day I've racing friends who recite the no passing in turns mantra and dismiss vintage racing as nothing more than a glorified parade. Others-like myself-are mystified with the rule sets.

One other feature of the original primordial muck of vintage racing was the complete lack of a long range vision. It was as if it was intended that when they - the founders - were through with it, vintage racing would simply end. I've often wondered why there was never a scheduled plan for incorporating the next generation of what would become vintage race cars - everything was supposedly frozen in time - forever.

Everything that was conceived of in the beginning was naive and as time would have it, the whole thing became uncontrollable. So here we are today complaining about Tony and some others over stuff that was primarily inherited and from the outside looked to be in total disarray. But it wasn't really. What had happened was that competitors built their own niches within the melee that had developed from the growing popularity of vintage racing - especially among retired and disenfranchised ex SCCA racers - with tacit "rule sets" evolved from experience, skill and a real competitive nature. This is something the old timers, and those who paid too much attention to them, never understood and if they did, they were afraid of it.

When Tony purchased SVRA it was at a fork in the road - it probably always was - and he choose the direction that the old timers told him was they way to go. If you think about it, why wouldn't he? They were the ones who had primarily always been in charge. They must know what they're talking about, right? It was a fatal error and a fatal blow to many of us who thought we were on the cusp of something we could enjoy. And as Hap says, it's unlikely most of us will ever return to SVRA - at least as long as Tony owns it. Nothing personal, but he's dug his heels in and we can never really trust that he will have a change of heart.

The small clubs are the big winners in all this, but they need to open up - and they are - to the newer "vintage cars" and let it be known that they aren't merely allowed, that they are welcomely embraced.

Dave Brown

Top
#14255 - 11/09/17 01:01 PM TRACK TIME [Re: rick haynes]
Alfaromeo1 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 76
Loc: IL
I like the people at SVRA, but running ten groups is never going to work out when it comes to track time, and I don't care what anyone says seat time and good racing is what it's all about. When customers fork out the money it cost and travel across the country for a week, they deserve two 25 min races a day. If you combine enough groups to where there are only six you can get two 25 min races per day for every run group easily and may have time for an Enduro as well. We do not need to warm up on Sunday or even Sat for that matter lets race.

We come to race not to be fed or listen to music, we can do that at home. I prefer to be so tired from driving that all I want is to hang out with some buddies, get a bite to eat and a good nights rest for tomorrows racing.

In my opinion for a national organization to be successful they need to either...

1. Find or develop enough people who can and will devote a week of their time, much effort, great expense to travel long distance to eight or more races. But when you have such sparse amounts of track time how long are they going to keep coming? Kudos for CoTA where they combined 1,2, 4 & 5 and ended up with 21 to 22 min races but combine some more and get us two 25 min races a day that is what we come for, to race.

I could be wrong but I don't see people with that kind of dough and free time who have lots of other very cool things to do continue to do something like this long term without more racing. Often especially when something is new people tend continue to do things out of habit like belonging to a country clubs they do not use anymore or continue buying season tickets just because they always have but they inevitably wake up at some point and say wait a minute this doesn't make sense anymore.

or

2. The events have to be so popular and fun (more racing) for the group 1, 3 & 8 crowds where the serious numbers lie in this country that every racer within four or five hundred miles wouldn't dream of missing them when they are near their locales. Events where everyone is encouraged to come not shunned because of fender flares, an air dam, brakes & tires that are the norm in all other Vintage organizations. It only stands to reason if you want to attract the thousands of grass roots vintage racers they have to be able to run with you not adapt to "your rules" or be hassled about everything from A to Z.

The last race I attended I got two first places & gold medals and did not even finish the first lap due to a mechancial breakdown on lap 1. So please tell me again where the priorities should be when you're not even handing out bronze medals in many classes due to a lack of particpants? Trivial rules which might?? affect lap times by a tenth or two of a second in a form of racing where our amatur drivers make at least two seconds worth of mistakes per lap or getting people to race with SVRA.

If you are a national organiztion you have to have a somewhat looser set of rules so you can adapt to 90% of the Vingtage cars being run nationwide not a stricter set of rules.

If SVRA adapted to what everyone else is doing instead of trying to force everyone else to do what they want they could tap this vast market and get a lot of guys who are not running with them now or who have given up who would race at two if not three or four races. Give them a reason to race with you and get them aboard.

IMO they have already pretty much blown it with the 2nd group and could eliminate Vintage as we know it and just charge more and give the guys who spend the bucks with the fancier care the track time they deserve.

Another possiblity would be to end up combining all Vintage groups into one or two Vintage Historic groups with all the old cars running together and give all the groups more track time. Midwest Council does this and it works pretty well.

I hate to bring up the common phrase we keep seeing over and over but apparently this phrase has not gained any traction with the powers that be. It's all about bang for the buck and in this case bang for the time and effort required too. As it is now if it were free and and my travel expenses were paid I would have a hard time devoting a week of my time to sit around all day waiting for my 16 minute race.


Edited by Alfaromeo1 (11/09/17 08:25 PM)
_________________________
Terry R. Stahly
Bloomington, IL 72 Alfa GTV 2000
Grp 8 VSCDA, SVRA, Midwest Counsel, HSR

www.stahly.com
www.4qte.com

Top
#14256 - 11/09/17 04:05 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: rick haynes]
Doug Meis Offline
Professional

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 394
Loc: NC
Well, this thread has turned into one of the better discussions on this forum.

"Does no one else see the absurdity in this; When probably 90% of the cars that would make up the production and sedan classes in vintage racing are not allowed? I'll point to my "new" car in particular. Here's a car with log books that go back to the mid - 70's and it isn't a vintage legal race car....!"

Yes, I agree that it is absurd that Miatas find themselves more acceptable than your car with all of it's history. The trick is finding ways to incorporate cars like that without alienating current competitors. So if your car shows up on the grid alongside a Midget prepped to current SVRA group one rules, how will that work? Obviously not the same class. Should they run in the same group? Would you run on treaded tires? Would we start to see "rules creep" b/c the other Midgets use the "but look at that car" excuse? Would we lose current entrants b/c they perceive that their cars are no longer competitive? Miatas can be more easily integrated in many ways b/c a lot of those questions do not apply.

"One other feature of the original primordial muck of vintage racing was the complete lack of a long range vision. It was as if it was intended that when they - the founders - were through with it, vintage racing would simply end. I've often wondered why there was never a scheduled plan for incorporating the next generation of what would become vintage race cars - everything was supposedly frozen in time - forever."

When vintage racing got started, it was a bunch of guys with old race cars and some money that wanted to play with their toys (OK, we still are but it was different then). Track rentals were a little more reasonable at the time. So they rented a track and took their Ferrari 250s, Testa Rossas, Maseratis, Jag C & D types, MG-TCs, assorted Porsches and a whole host of wide ranging old cars out for some fun. It was never planned to be anything in particular. It just evolved into a bigger thing with annual happenings that grew to the point of devising groups and classes. The "founders" were very much living in the moment and I doubt any of them really cared what would become of their early gatherings much less devise a scheduled plan for incorporating the next generation.

1972 became a generally agreed upon cut-off date as it more or less demarcated the cross-over to slicks and other modifications like non-stock appearing, flared bodies and a variety of modifications that eventually led to tube chassis cars that were more silhouette racers than the sports cars they once were.

Top
#14257 - 11/09/17 05:46 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Doug Meis]
dcb Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1009
"The trick is finding ways to incorporate cars like that without alienating current competitors. So if your car shows up on the grid alongside a Midget prepped to current SVRA group one rules, how will that work? Obviously not the same class. Should they run in the same group? Would you run on treaded tires? Would we start to see "rules creep" b/c the other Midgets use the "but look at that car" excuse? Would we lose current entrants b/c they perceive that their cars are no longer competitive? Miatas can be more easily integrated in many ways b/c a lot of those questions do not apply."

So the answer is to leave things as they are and ignore 30 years of road racing history? The point is that what's needed is "rules creep" from the organizers side of the equation. A typical front running group 1 car is not all that far away from being a competitive current prod car of the same make and class. Vintage engine rules are much more liberal - carb options, free internals, free valve size, etc. - than with SCCA. And if they all ran on vintage legal rubber, the better brakes on the SCCA cars would only mean more flat-spotted tires.

And consider this, the SCCA limited prep rules basically are a way of blending two completely different levels of chassis and driveline preparation into one competitive class. We can argue on how successfully this has been done, but it is a reasonable attempt at doing exactly what the vintage folks consider impossible.

Now, will this bring out a whole new crop of cars? I would think so, but it would take some time and promotion. I truly believe that this is the direction that the organizations must take. And it must be done with openness and good cheer - don't worry about whether or not it's a perfect solution right off the bat, just get it done.

Remember the business plan of the first transcontinental railway: Get it done fast, get folks used to it, and then refine it.

Dave Brown


Edited by dcb (11/09/17 11:30 PM)

Top
#14258 - 11/09/17 11:22 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: rick haynes]
rick haynes Offline
Amateur racer

Registered: 09/15/13
Posts: 189
Lots of advice, direct and implied, for Tony Parella about what to do to turn
SVRA around,,, I wonder how much of it he will use?

rick haynes


Edited by rick haynes (11/09/17 11:24 PM)

Top
#14259 - 11/10/17 08:01 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: rick haynes]
Doug Meis Offline
Professional

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 394
Loc: NC
"The point is that what's needed is "rules creep" from the organizers side of the equation. A typical front running group 1 car is not all that far away from being a competitive current prod car of the same make and class"

I've talked about vintage racing's "Golden Age" being late 80's to sometime in the 90's. With popularity and success came more competitive racing. And as we all know, speed costs money ("How fa$t do you want to go?"). So guys with money to spend that wanted to win a race group spent their money knowing that there was no protest mechanism and teardowns never happened. It was one of many factors for the beginning of the decline of vintage racing. Along with something that had run it's course as a popular and novel sport, there were those that became disillusioned and jaded by the rampant, um, let's call it "creative engineering".

One of the driving forces behind the founding of VDCA was the dissatisfaction of vintage racers with the state of play where it seemed like an "anything goes", run what ya brung as long as the check clears attitude of organizers. VDCA proposed to take prod car prep rules back to 1967. Headlight buckets (no glass), all exterior trim, no flares, stock dash and recognizable interior, no heim joints, stock carbs and everything else from the 1967 PCS/GCR except the safety equip. Racers said "Yes! Let's turn back the clock and make this true, fair vintage racing again." And VDCA talked the talk, believing that if it was not stated firmly and clearly that racers would not take it seriously.

Racers failed to put their money where their mouth was and stayed away in droves. it took years for VDCA to live down the reputation that if your car did not have a full stock interior, your entry would be rejected. The tough talk about car specs clearly backfired.

No, vintage rules and eligibility can not stay the same forever as draconian prep rules are a big turn-off for potential entrants. At the same time, the "rules creep" of lax enforcement helped spawn an entire new race group in protest to that situation. It's not a simple answer.

Top
#14260 - 11/10/17 09:51 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Doug Meis]
dcb Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1009
I fear what's going to happen is that the abrupt and forced evolution of vintage racing will have missed the chance to incorporate the last 30 years of the 20th century's small production and sedan racers but the Miata's and older SCCA spec racers - both Renault and Ford will be embraced.

This will have happened for all the reasons Doug has mentioned which have skewed the minds of competitors and organizers into thinking there was something irredeemably demonic about these cars and their advocates. stupidity, ignorance and senselessness will have controlled this outcome and it's shameful.

Let's put it this way. A generation of folks, who were comfortable with an era of racing that they never actually participated in, have had their notion of the "way things ought to be'' become gospel. And the confirmation of this contrived gospel has required that the bulk of production and sedan based road racing in the closing 30 years of the 20th century be viewed as "unclean" or blasphemous. Meanwhile there is this ringing of hands over wondering where all the cars have gone.

So now someone scans the demographic skew of vintage racers and finds that most have to take leave from a retirement community to go racing. And what's the cure? Allow more modern cars in to attract a more youthful crowd. The result is that in the gap is 30 years of road racing that will become the forgotten era, all because of senseless fears and protectionism.

There, that felt good!
Dave Brown

Top
#14261 - 11/10/17 05:36 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: rick haynes]
Greg_Sef Offline
Wannabe

Registered: 05/26/15
Posts: 8
Loc: Long Island, NY USA
I really never post here, but read the new posts on average every other week. I head to Sebring from New York every March since 2010 to run in the SVRA's Sebring Vintage Classic. I have great time every year and I love Sebring.

Do I think that the SVRA is the greatest thing to ever happen to vintage racing? No. Is Tony up for Time magazine man of the year? No. I think its a great event. I'm definitely not a fan of the Trans Am group taking up track time but I get that the revenue stream is what the SVRA wants, its a business after all.

I run two cars that don't align exactly with what they should be. They have been very accommodating to get my cars in the correct groups (3 & 8)but I can see how they can piss off some car owners first hand.

But I gotta say that all the pissing and moaning about the SVRA and hand wringing on the direction of vintage racing is going seems to be a big waste of time. Prep your cars and race where you want to. The old days are over and they aren't coming back. I'm 56 now and sometimes seem like a young man in the paddock - that's a problem. I had just as much fun racing with VRG for the first time in September than I have had at a SVRA race at about 1/2 the cost. But I'll still try to get to 2 or more SVRA events per year.

sorry for the rant but I think all things considered we'd all be better off racing.

Greg
_________________________
1982 Alfa GTV6 EP car
1971 Alfa Berlina Vintage car (Taxi)
1974 GTV Vintage Car
1986 Alfa Milano Endurance race car. "Angelina" 20K hard race miles.

Top
#14262 - 11/10/17 06:59 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: dcb]
hoffman900 Offline
Champion

Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 543
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: dcb

So now someone scans the demographic skew of vintage racers and finds that most have to take leave from a retirement community to go racing. And what's the cure? Allow more modern cars in to attract a more youthful crowd. The result is that in the gap is 30 years of road racing that will become the forgotten era, all because of senseless fears and protectionism.

There, that felt good!
Dave Brown


Dave, I think the biggest flaw in that thinking is the people interested in racing those cars, under that rule set, are somehow younger than the ones currently racing under the vintage rule set.

IMO, it's the same demographics, and the prep time period isn't going to change that.


Edited by hoffman900 (11/10/17 07:00 PM)

Top
#14263 - 11/10/17 11:55 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: hoffman900]
dcb Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1009
Once again I'm struck with the apparent difficulty some have in understanding the written word. There is nothing in what I wrote that suggests that allowing cars from "the forgotten era" would attract a younger demographic - nothing!

But what it might do is bring some cars out of storage to attend vintage races. Personally I know of at least a half dozen cars sitting in garages for want of a venue to race. Will any or all of them come out to race? I don't know, but the point is there is little reason why they shouldn't at least be allowed to. And the concerns that prevent this from happening are sketchy and cliched.

And Greg, stop bragging about your age!
Dave Brown

Top
#14264 - 11/11/17 08:34 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Greg_Sef]
ProCoach Online   content
Champion

Registered: 01/15/11
Posts: 706
Loc: Virginia International Raceway
Originally Posted By: Greg_Sef
I really never post here, but read the new posts on average every other week. I head to Sebring from New York every March since 2010 to run in the SVRA's Sebring Vintage Classic. I have great time every year and I love Sebring.

Do I think that the SVRA is the greatest thing to ever happen to vintage racing? No. Is Tony up for Time magazine man of the year? No. I think its a great event. I'm definitely not a fan of the Trans Am group taking up track time but I get that the revenue stream is what the SVRA wants, its a business after all.

I run two cars that don't align exactly with what they should be. They have been very accommodating to get my cars in the correct groups (3 & 8)but I can see how they can piss off some car owners first hand.

But I gotta say that all the pissing and moaning about the SVRA and hand wringing on the direction of vintage racing is going seems to be a big waste of time. Prep your cars and race where you want to. The old days are over and they aren't coming back. I'm 56 now and sometimes seem like a young man in the paddock - that's a problem. I had just as much fun racing with VRG for the first time in September than I have had at a SVRA race at about 1/2 the cost. But I'll still try to get to 2 or more SVRA events per year.

sorry for the rant but I think all things considered we'd all be better off racing.

Greg


Hear, hear, Greg!

Great post, reflective of reality, instead of dcb's bloviating and rick's fake news and name calling.

Looking forward to racing at VDCA for the nineteenth December at Roebling. Always a good time!
_________________________
-Peter Krause
Professional Race Instruction and Coaching
Data and Video Sales, Interpretation and Training
"The Driver is the Greatest Performance Variable"
www.peterkrause.net

Top
#14266 - 11/12/17 08:52 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: rick haynes]
Hap Waldrop Offline
Champion

Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 786
Loc: Greenville, SC
I made a post on the MG street car forums last week, it was titled
"A Real vintage road race at Road Atlanta this weekend". It was not meant to be a insult to any group, just letting my MG street peeps know they could go see a vintage race that actually had more than 2, or 3 MGs entered. I look at the entrant list and saw that 1/3 of the entries were LBCs, now if you count the other than British sport cars car that also fall this category the number rises to about 50%. The weather was unseasonably cool this weekend for VDCA new fall date at Road Atlanta, but they still had a good turn out and I think more will come to race in the future. Now let's get to why Freddy and I went to this race without a race car, we went to help and check on new vintage racers that are our customers, Freddy went to help a group 1 Spridget racer, who's car are prepped by a longtime SCCA friend, one of those guys has Fred's transmission in his Midget, and that group of 4 Spridgets, which includes 2 guys in their 50s, and two guys in their 20's all somewhat new to vintage racing. I went to help my customer, who is in early 40s, who races his father's car, his father passed away a couple of years ago and was VDCA regular, and a friend of mine, now I help his son race the same car. Even with the trials and tribulations of racing, all these somewhat newcomers enjoyed their weekend, and will be back for more.

The VDCA gives their entrants tons of track time. Even with this being a 2 day event, you get near hour of track time each day and when you factor in the gimmick race and free enduro that number grows. This is what newcomers wants in a event, more track time. In my 6 years now as racer attending VDCA events, I came to it at the time I guess group 1 and 3 numbers were rising, as I always had good class fields to race with and good racers and cars in those classes, I have also seen growth in FV, FF, and now big bore cars in the VDCA, so the word must be getting out, this and many other grassroots groups are about more track time and keeping it all fun.

Now on personal level I didn't choose this path for me into vintage racing, a generous, and kind friend made it happen for me, I think he knew what I needed more than I did. I can't say it was great time for me to take this on, I was dealing with my cancer, then later a divorce and now relocating my business. I keep telling myself, all this will soon level out, and I will have more time to race. So after 6 years of participating, observing and studying all things vintage racing, where and with whom do I see my future in vintage racing, I see with the group that brought me to the dance, the VDCA. Sorry I don't want to do 8-10 races a years, I don't have the time, money, or energy to do that anymore, so now this is about quality, more so than quantity. I want to maybe race 3-4 times a year, and the VDCA offers me that with good events at good venues and good field of competition to do it with, what else I could ask for. Now with that said, without bashing other groups, or events, this is simply what I want to do, the real question is am I alone, I don't think so.

Now as a longtime SCCA racer, I can tell you as many can, the SCCA had it's own level of drama. So what do I like about the VDCA as a group most of all, the lack of drama, and it's grassroots feel. I am sure many of you can relate with your area's grassroot group, whether it be the VRG, the VSCDA, or other grassroots groups. Heck the only thing I can see the VDCA could work on is marketing better to get the word out better to the masses. I know at least two MG racers who recently sold their cars, stating they were selling their cars for lack of similar competition, both lived in GA, and as far I know neither ever raced with the VDCA, because if they had they may have kept their MG race cars.







Edited by Hap Waldrop (11/12/17 08:58 AM)
_________________________
Hap Waldrop
Acme Speed Shop 864-370-3000
www.acmespeedshop.com
MG/Triumph Performance Street/Race Engines
The Vintage Production Car Festival
https://www.facebook.com/vintageproductioncarfestival

Top
#14317 - 12/01/17 02:00 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: rick haynes]
rick haynes Offline
Amateur racer

Registered: 09/15/13
Posts: 189
I learned that the Mazda Miata heritage cup racers will have their entry fees subsidized by Tony's organization next year. Is that true?
If it is and along with the priority being on the Trans-am cars during the weekends and a continuing drop in the traditional vintage car entries,
maybe it is time to stop the pretense and just call it "SRA", it seems a better description at this point.
rick haynes


Edited by rick haynes (12/01/17 03:49 AM)

Top
#14319 - 12/01/17 08:40 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: rick haynes]
V8vairmike Offline
Winner

Registered: 05/10/14
Posts: 438
I talked to Tony on the phone and we exchanged emails a few times about my V8 Car/ProAM and if you looked at the 2018 Schedule the Corvairs/Stingers are the featured car at VIR.
Hes very easy to talk to. He went out of his way to explain a few things and I respect what hes doing with SVRA,as with Vintage racing and business theres alot of people to please.
Call him,Email him,im sure he reads this forum and would like your input at a more personnel level than this forum.
I like 8 lap races,im Vintage just like my car,an Enduro if i want to go longer.
As far as the extras,yea im there to race but my wife likes all that other stuff.
Just Like HSRs Hutchison Island,my wifes favorite race cause she hangs out in Savannah most of the weekend.
My new Favorite is the VDCA Season Finale at Roebling,No frilles,just fun with a great group of drivers, the only Big Rigs you might see is Sasco or Bob Woodmans tire trucks.
Plenty of racing just pick the ones you like and have fun. Mike

Top
#14325 - 12/04/17 04:08 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: rick haynes]
Rus'L Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/17/14
Posts: 53
Loc: Rochester, NY
Originally Posted By: rick haynes
I learned that the Mazda Miata heritage cup racers will have their entry fees subsidized by Tony's organization next year. Is that true?
If it is and along with the priority being on the Trans-am cars during the weekends and a continuing drop in the traditional vintage car entries,
maybe it is time to stop the pretense and just call it "SRA", it seems a better description at this point.
rick haynes


The Mazda Miata Heritage Cup cars had lower entry fees in 2017 also. So, nothing new there. And I thought Mazda was subsidizing that through sponsorship, but that was purely my assumption, not based on any knowledge of the situation.

And Mazda Miata Heritage Cup cars are vintage cars. They are essentially as old as your Group 1 cars were when vintage racing first started...

Top
#14326 - 12/04/17 07:33 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: rick haynes]
rick haynes Offline
Amateur racer

Registered: 09/15/13
Posts: 189
Rus,
So the older vintage cars were discriminated against ,entry fee wise, last year too. That's good to know but I do wonder if everybody paying the full entry fee
price for the same thing knew it? And plus they all get to paddock on the grass too. You are not persuading anybody Mazda Miatas are vintage cars , if they were Mazda would not be subsidizing the entry fees, If they actually are doing that, which I would bet they are not. I think Tony is doing it to get the numbers up.

Rus , you can try to spin this as hard as you like but the fact is, a SXRA weekend looks less and less like a vintage racing event and more like a ?????????????,
not really sure what it looks like any more.

rick haynes

Top
#14327 - 12/05/17 12:25 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: rick haynes]
Rus'L Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/17/14
Posts: 53
Loc: Rochester, NY
Originally Posted By: rick haynes
Rus,
So the older vintage cars were discriminated against ,entry fee wise, last year too. That's good to know but I do wonder if everybody paying the full entry fee
price for the same thing knew it?


It was stated clearly on the entry form. Hiding in plain site? Only if you can't read...

Quote:
And plus they all get to paddock on the grass too. You are not persuading anybody Mazda Miatas are vintage cars ,


Not all Miatas are allowed to race. How old are the cars that are allowed to race?

Many consider the first Walter Mitty Challenge to be the start of vintage racing in this country. The first one was in 1977. How old was your vintage car in 1977? How does that compare with the age of the Miatas which are considered vintage today?

And remember, other vintage groups are starting to allow the older Miatas into their events.

Quote:
if they were Mazda would not be subsidizing the entry fees, If they actually are doing that, which I would bet they are not. I think Tony is doing it to get the numbers up.


Depends on your definition of subsidize. I'm assuming there is some sort of sponsorship deal going on here. In exchange, I'm sure Mazda would like to see this particular class be well subscribed. So, if they get a discount to accommodate this need, is that part of a sponsorship deal or subsidizing?

Quote:
Rus , you can try to spin this as hard as you like but the fact is,


I'm not doing any spinning. I'm not even arguing this point. I'm just stating some facts. You're the one spinning like a top...

Top
#14328 - 12/05/17 12:54 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Rus'L]
Alfaromeo1 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 76
Loc: IL
Well said Rus
_________________________
Terry R. Stahly
Bloomington, IL 72 Alfa GTV 2000
Grp 8 VSCDA, SVRA, Midwest Counsel, HSR

www.stahly.com
www.4qte.com

Top
#14330 - 12/05/17 02:22 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Rus'L]
rick haynes Offline
Amateur racer

Registered: 09/15/13
Posts: 189
Rus
I don't see many SXRA entry forms but I will guess you are right about it being in plain site. In fact potential participants seeing that two-tier entry fee scheme might account for the dramatic drop in entries at SXRA events. If I was thinking about running a vintage race that bit of unfairness would certainly tell me something about how important I was to the organization. Could be others feel the same way.

And subsidizing is where 2 entrants pay a different amount to do the same thing.
I bet that's pretty clear to the ones writing the bigger check.

rick haynes


Edited by rick haynes (12/05/17 02:24 PM)

Top
Page 4 of 4 < 1 2 3 4

Carl Jensen R.I.P. 1943-2017
VARA News
Who's Online
1 registered (JFW), 253 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
mosportracer, exebyrov, David Irwin, Classic Miata Motorsports, SCTR6
748 Registered Users