Put-In-Bay ~ Sept. 24-27, 2018 MARK YOUR CALENDARS!!!
HSR Mitty, April 27-29
NEW POSTS
Forum Migration to Xenforo Platform
by TopGearTech
0 seconds ago
Did I miss the bigger picture?
by Alfaromeo1
05/18/18 08:24 PM
New Administrator / Forum Director
by Racers Anonymous
05/16/18 11:51 PM
TATRA T603...etc.
by zuzulo56
05/16/18 11:33 AM
AS Mustang Question
by Mike Clifford
04/27/18 01:12 AM
MGB rod bearing failures, here's my plan
by zuzulo56
04/26/18 01:22 PM
Diminutive Engines...Skinny Tyres...Good Racing.
by zuzulo56
04/24/18 12:32 AM
Page 4 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#14254 - 11/09/17 10:09 AM Re: Did I miss the bigger picture? [Re: dynalead]
dcb Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1027
Originally Posted By: dynalead
And if racers are not complaining within a class, leave them alone, they will sort of themselves....

Well said.


Ditto that!

This is apt to ramble a bit because I don't really have a clear objective to this post. Years ago - probably sometime in the 80s - I was first made aware of vintage racing through a close friend. My initial reaction to this introduction was that these guys are a bunch of wannabe woosies. What was all this about no passing in the turns and driving at 8/10ths? It was to my mind something like the way kids think about sex - well used to anyway.

Then of course there was some pretty self serving rule sets that allowed some eye-candy stuff all under the guise of it would be more reliable. Anyway, right off the bat most of what plagues vintage racing was set in stone - at least in the minds of those who were involved and in those of us on the outside witnessing it. To this day I've racing friends who recite the no passing in turns mantra and dismiss vintage racing as nothing more than a glorified parade. Others-like myself-are mystified with the rule sets.

One other feature of the original primordial muck of vintage racing was the complete lack of a long range vision. It was as if it was intended that when they - the founders - were through with it, vintage racing would simply end. I've often wondered why there was never a scheduled plan for incorporating the next generation of what would become vintage race cars - everything was supposedly frozen in time - forever.

Everything that was conceived of in the beginning was naive and as time would have it, the whole thing became uncontrollable. So here we are today complaining about Tony and some others over stuff that was primarily inherited and from the outside looked to be in total disarray. But it wasn't really. What had happened was that competitors built their own niches within the melee that had developed from the growing popularity of vintage racing - especially among retired and disenfranchised ex SCCA racers - with tacit "rule sets" evolved from experience, skill and a real competitive nature. This is something the old timers, and those who paid too much attention to them, never understood and if they did, they were afraid of it.

When Tony purchased SVRA it was at a fork in the road - it probably always was - and he choose the direction that the old timers told him was they way to go. If you think about it, why wouldn't he? They were the ones who had primarily always been in charge. They must know what they're talking about, right? It was a fatal error and a fatal blow to many of us who thought we were on the cusp of something we could enjoy. And as Hap says, it's unlikely most of us will ever return to SVRA - at least as long as Tony owns it. Nothing personal, but he's dug his heels in and we can never really trust that he will have a change of heart.

The small clubs are the big winners in all this, but they need to open up - and they are - to the newer "vintage cars" and let it be known that they aren't merely allowed, that they are welcomely embraced.

Dave Brown

Top
#14255 - 11/09/17 01:01 PM TRACK TIME [Re: ]
Alfaromeo1 Online   content
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 93
Loc: IL
I like the people at SVRA, but running ten groups is never going to work out when it comes to track time, and I don't care what anyone says seat time and good racing is what it's all about. When customers fork out the money it cost and travel across the country for a week, they deserve two 25 min races a day. If you combine enough groups to where there are only six you can get two 25 min races per day for every run group easily and may have time for an Enduro as well. We do not need to warm up on Sunday or even Sat for that matter lets race.

We come to race not to be fed or listen to music, we can do that at home. I prefer to be so tired from driving that all I want is to hang out with some buddies, get a bite to eat and a good nights rest for tomorrows racing.

In my opinion for a national organization to be successful they need to either...

1. Find or develop enough people who can and will devote a week of their time, much effort, great expense to travel long distance to eight or more races. But when you have such sparse amounts of track time how long are they going to keep coming? Kudos for CoTA where they combined 1,2, 4 & 5 and ended up with 21 to 22 min races but combine some more and get us two 25 min races a day that is what we come for, to race.

I could be wrong but I don't see people with that kind of dough and free time who have lots of other very cool things to do continue to do something like this long term without more racing. Often especially when something is new people tend continue to do things out of habit like belonging to a country clubs they do not use anymore or continue buying season tickets just because they always have but they inevitably wake up at some point and say wait a minute this doesn't make sense anymore.

or

2. The events have to be so popular and fun (more racing) for the group 1, 3 & 8 crowds where the serious numbers lie in this country that every racer within four or five hundred miles wouldn't dream of missing them when they are near their locales. Events where everyone is encouraged to come not shunned because of fender flares, an air dam, brakes & tires that are the norm in all other Vintage organizations. It only stands to reason if you want to attract the thousands of grass roots vintage racers they have to be able to run with you not adapt to "your rules" or be hassled about everything from A to Z.

The last race I attended I got two first places & gold medals and did not even finish the first lap due to a mechancial breakdown on lap 1. So please tell me again where the priorities should be when you're not even handing out bronze medals in many classes due to a lack of particpants? Trivial rules which might?? affect lap times by a tenth or two of a second in a form of racing where our amatur drivers make at least two seconds worth of mistakes per lap or getting people to race with SVRA.

If you are a national organiztion you have to have a somewhat looser set of rules so you can adapt to 90% of the Vingtage cars being run nationwide not a stricter set of rules.

If SVRA adapted to what everyone else is doing instead of trying to force everyone else to do what they want they could tap this vast market and get a lot of guys who are not running with them now or who have given up who would race at two if not three or four races. Give them a reason to race with you and get them aboard.

IMO they have already pretty much blown it with the 2nd group and could eliminate Vintage as we know it and just charge more and give the guys who spend the bucks with the fancier care the track time they deserve.

Another possiblity would be to end up combining all Vintage groups into one or two Vintage Historic groups with all the old cars running together and give all the groups more track time. Midwest Council does this and it works pretty well.

I hate to bring up the common phrase we keep seeing over and over but apparently this phrase has not gained any traction with the powers that be. It's all about bang for the buck and in this case bang for the time and effort required too. As it is now if it were free and and my travel expenses were paid I would have a hard time devoting a week of my time to sit around all day waiting for my 16 minute race.


Edited by Alfaromeo1 (11/09/17 08:25 PM)
_________________________
Terry R. Stahly
Bloomington, IL 72 Alfa GTV 2000
Grp 8 VSCDA, SVRA, Midwest Counsel, HSR

www.stahly.com
www.4qte.com

Top
#14256 - 11/09/17 04:05 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: ]
Doug Meis Offline
Winner

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 401
Loc: NC
Well, this thread has turned into one of the better discussions on this forum.

"Does no one else see the absurdity in this; When probably 90% of the cars that would make up the production and sedan classes in vintage racing are not allowed? I'll point to my "new" car in particular. Here's a car with log books that go back to the mid - 70's and it isn't a vintage legal race car....!"

Yes, I agree that it is absurd that Miatas find themselves more acceptable than your car with all of it's history. The trick is finding ways to incorporate cars like that without alienating current competitors. So if your car shows up on the grid alongside a Midget prepped to current SVRA group one rules, how will that work? Obviously not the same class. Should they run in the same group? Would you run on treaded tires? Would we start to see "rules creep" b/c the other Midgets use the "but look at that car" excuse? Would we lose current entrants b/c they perceive that their cars are no longer competitive? Miatas can be more easily integrated in many ways b/c a lot of those questions do not apply.

"One other feature of the original primordial muck of vintage racing was the complete lack of a long range vision. It was as if it was intended that when they - the founders - were through with it, vintage racing would simply end. I've often wondered why there was never a scheduled plan for incorporating the next generation of what would become vintage race cars - everything was supposedly frozen in time - forever."

When vintage racing got started, it was a bunch of guys with old race cars and some money that wanted to play with their toys (OK, we still are but it was different then). Track rentals were a little more reasonable at the time. So they rented a track and took their Ferrari 250s, Testa Rossas, Maseratis, Jag C & D types, MG-TCs, assorted Porsches and a whole host of wide ranging old cars out for some fun. It was never planned to be anything in particular. It just evolved into a bigger thing with annual happenings that grew to the point of devising groups and classes. The "founders" were very much living in the moment and I doubt any of them really cared what would become of their early gatherings much less devise a scheduled plan for incorporating the next generation.

1972 became a generally agreed upon cut-off date as it more or less demarcated the cross-over to slicks and other modifications like non-stock appearing, flared bodies and a variety of modifications that eventually led to tube chassis cars that were more silhouette racers than the sports cars they once were.

Top
#14257 - 11/09/17 05:46 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Doug Meis]
dcb Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1027
"The trick is finding ways to incorporate cars like that without alienating current competitors. So if your car shows up on the grid alongside a Midget prepped to current SVRA group one rules, how will that work? Obviously not the same class. Should they run in the same group? Would you run on treaded tires? Would we start to see "rules creep" b/c the other Midgets use the "but look at that car" excuse? Would we lose current entrants b/c they perceive that their cars are no longer competitive? Miatas can be more easily integrated in many ways b/c a lot of those questions do not apply."

So the answer is to leave things as they are and ignore 30 years of road racing history? The point is that what's needed is "rules creep" from the organizers side of the equation. A typical front running group 1 car is not all that far away from being a competitive current prod car of the same make and class. Vintage engine rules are much more liberal - carb options, free internals, free valve size, etc. - than with SCCA. And if they all ran on vintage legal rubber, the better brakes on the SCCA cars would only mean more flat-spotted tires.

And consider this, the SCCA limited prep rules basically are a way of blending two completely different levels of chassis and driveline preparation into one competitive class. We can argue on how successfully this has been done, but it is a reasonable attempt at doing exactly what the vintage folks consider impossible.

Now, will this bring out a whole new crop of cars? I would think so, but it would take some time and promotion. I truly believe that this is the direction that the organizations must take. And it must be done with openness and good cheer - don't worry about whether or not it's a perfect solution right off the bat, just get it done.

Remember the business plan of the first transcontinental railway: Get it done fast, get folks used to it, and then refine it.

Dave Brown


Edited by dcb (11/09/17 11:30 PM)

Top
#14258 - 11/09/17 11:22 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: ]
rick haynes
Unregistered


Lots of advice, direct and implied, for Tony Parella about what to do to turn
SVRA around,,, I wonder how much of it he will use?

rick haynes


Edited by rick haynes (11/09/17 11:24 PM)

Top
#14259 - 11/10/17 08:01 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: ]
Doug Meis Offline
Winner

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 401
Loc: NC
"The point is that what's needed is "rules creep" from the organizers side of the equation. A typical front running group 1 car is not all that far away from being a competitive current prod car of the same make and class"

I've talked about vintage racing's "Golden Age" being late 80's to sometime in the 90's. With popularity and success came more competitive racing. And as we all know, speed costs money ("How fa$t do you want to go?"). So guys with money to spend that wanted to win a race group spent their money knowing that there was no protest mechanism and teardowns never happened. It was one of many factors for the beginning of the decline of vintage racing. Along with something that had run it's course as a popular and novel sport, there were those that became disillusioned and jaded by the rampant, um, let's call it "creative engineering".

One of the driving forces behind the founding of VDCA was the dissatisfaction of vintage racers with the state of play where it seemed like an "anything goes", run what ya brung as long as the check clears attitude of organizers. VDCA proposed to take prod car prep rules back to 1967. Headlight buckets (no glass), all exterior trim, no flares, stock dash and recognizable interior, no heim joints, stock carbs and everything else from the 1967 PCS/GCR except the safety equip. Racers said "Yes! Let's turn back the clock and make this true, fair vintage racing again." And VDCA talked the talk, believing that if it was not stated firmly and clearly that racers would not take it seriously.

Racers failed to put their money where their mouth was and stayed away in droves. it took years for VDCA to live down the reputation that if your car did not have a full stock interior, your entry would be rejected. The tough talk about car specs clearly backfired.

No, vintage rules and eligibility can not stay the same forever as draconian prep rules are a big turn-off for potential entrants. At the same time, the "rules creep" of lax enforcement helped spawn an entire new race group in protest to that situation. It's not a simple answer.

Top
#14260 - 11/10/17 09:51 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Doug Meis]
dcb Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1027
I fear what's going to happen is that the abrupt and forced evolution of vintage racing will have missed the chance to incorporate the last 30 years of the 20th century's small production and sedan racers but the Miata's and older SCCA spec racers - both Renault and Ford will be embraced.

This will have happened for all the reasons Doug has mentioned which have skewed the minds of competitors and organizers into thinking there was something irredeemably demonic about these cars and their advocates. stupidity, ignorance and senselessness will have controlled this outcome and it's shameful.

Let's put it this way. A generation of folks, who were comfortable with an era of racing that they never actually participated in, have had their notion of the "way things ought to be'' become gospel. And the confirmation of this contrived gospel has required that the bulk of production and sedan based road racing in the closing 30 years of the 20th century be viewed as "unclean" or blasphemous. Meanwhile there is this ringing of hands over wondering where all the cars have gone.

So now someone scans the demographic skew of vintage racers and finds that most have to take leave from a retirement community to go racing. And what's the cure? Allow more modern cars in to attract a more youthful crowd. The result is that in the gap is 30 years of road racing that will become the forgotten era, all because of senseless fears and protectionism.

There, that felt good!
Dave Brown

Top
#14261 - 11/10/17 05:36 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: ]
Greg_Sef Offline
Wannabe

Registered: 05/26/15
Posts: 8
Loc: Long Island, NY USA
I really never post here, but read the new posts on average every other week. I head to Sebring from New York every March since 2010 to run in the SVRA's Sebring Vintage Classic. I have great time every year and I love Sebring.

Do I think that the SVRA is the greatest thing to ever happen to vintage racing? No. Is Tony up for Time magazine man of the year? No. I think its a great event. I'm definitely not a fan of the Trans Am group taking up track time but I get that the revenue stream is what the SVRA wants, its a business after all.

I run two cars that don't align exactly with what they should be. They have been very accommodating to get my cars in the correct groups (3 & 8)but I can see how they can piss off some car owners first hand.

But I gotta say that all the pissing and moaning about the SVRA and hand wringing on the direction of vintage racing is going seems to be a big waste of time. Prep your cars and race where you want to. The old days are over and they aren't coming back. I'm 56 now and sometimes seem like a young man in the paddock - that's a problem. I had just as much fun racing with VRG for the first time in September than I have had at a SVRA race at about 1/2 the cost. But I'll still try to get to 2 or more SVRA events per year.

sorry for the rant but I think all things considered we'd all be better off racing.

Greg
_________________________
1982 Alfa GTV6 EP car
1971 Alfa Berlina Vintage car (Taxi)
1974 GTV Vintage Car
1986 Alfa Milano Endurance race car. "Angelina" 20K hard race miles.

Top
#14262 - 11/10/17 06:59 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: dcb]
hoffman900 Offline
Champion

Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 557
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: dcb

So now someone scans the demographic skew of vintage racers and finds that most have to take leave from a retirement community to go racing. And what's the cure? Allow more modern cars in to attract a more youthful crowd. The result is that in the gap is 30 years of road racing that will become the forgotten era, all because of senseless fears and protectionism.

There, that felt good!
Dave Brown


Dave, I think the biggest flaw in that thinking is the people interested in racing those cars, under that rule set, are somehow younger than the ones currently racing under the vintage rule set.

IMO, it's the same demographics, and the prep time period isn't going to change that.


Edited by hoffman900 (11/10/17 07:00 PM)

Top
#14263 - 11/10/17 11:55 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: hoffman900]
dcb Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1027
Once again I'm struck with the apparent difficulty some have in understanding the written word. There is nothing in what I wrote that suggests that allowing cars from "the forgotten era" would attract a younger demographic - nothing!

But what it might do is bring some cars out of storage to attend vintage races. Personally I know of at least a half dozen cars sitting in garages for want of a venue to race. Will any or all of them come out to race? I don't know, but the point is there is little reason why they shouldn't at least be allowed to. And the concerns that prevent this from happening are sketchy and cliched.

And Greg, stop bragging about your age!
Dave Brown

Top
#14264 - 11/11/17 08:34 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Greg_Sef]
ProCoach Offline
Champion

Registered: 01/15/11
Posts: 710
Loc: Virginia International Raceway
Originally Posted By: Greg_Sef
I really never post here, but read the new posts on average every other week. I head to Sebring from New York every March since 2010 to run in the SVRA's Sebring Vintage Classic. I have great time every year and I love Sebring.

Do I think that the SVRA is the greatest thing to ever happen to vintage racing? No. Is Tony up for Time magazine man of the year? No. I think its a great event. I'm definitely not a fan of the Trans Am group taking up track time but I get that the revenue stream is what the SVRA wants, its a business after all.

I run two cars that don't align exactly with what they should be. They have been very accommodating to get my cars in the correct groups (3 & 8)but I can see how they can piss off some car owners first hand.

But I gotta say that all the pissing and moaning about the SVRA and hand wringing on the direction of vintage racing is going seems to be a big waste of time. Prep your cars and race where you want to. The old days are over and they aren't coming back. I'm 56 now and sometimes seem like a young man in the paddock - that's a problem. I had just as much fun racing with VRG for the first time in September than I have had at a SVRA race at about 1/2 the cost. But I'll still try to get to 2 or more SVRA events per year.

sorry for the rant but I think all things considered we'd all be better off racing.

Greg


Hear, hear, Greg!

Great post, reflective of reality, instead of dcb's bloviating and rick's fake news and name calling.

Looking forward to racing at VDCA for the nineteenth December at Roebling. Always a good time!
_________________________
-Peter Krause
Professional Race Instruction and Coaching
Data and Video Sales, Interpretation and Training
"The Driver is the Greatest Performance Variable"
www.peterkrause.net

Top
#14266 - 11/12/17 08:52 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: ]
Hap Waldrop Offline
Champion

Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 801
Loc: Greenville, SC
I made a post on the MG street car forums last week, it was titled
"A Real vintage road race at Road Atlanta this weekend". It was not meant to be a insult to any group, just letting my MG street peeps know they could go see a vintage race that actually had more than 2, or 3 MGs entered. I look at the entrant list and saw that 1/3 of the entries were LBCs, now if you count the other than British sport cars car that also fall this category the number rises to about 50%. The weather was unseasonably cool this weekend for VDCA new fall date at Road Atlanta, but they still had a good turn out and I think more will come to race in the future. Now let's get to why Freddy and I went to this race without a race car, we went to help and check on new vintage racers that are our customers, Freddy went to help a group 1 Spridget racer, who's car are prepped by a longtime SCCA friend, one of those guys has Fred's transmission in his Midget, and that group of 4 Spridgets, which includes 2 guys in their 50s, and two guys in their 20's all somewhat new to vintage racing. I went to help my customer, who is in early 40s, who races his father's car, his father passed away a couple of years ago and was VDCA regular, and a friend of mine, now I help his son race the same car. Even with the trials and tribulations of racing, all these somewhat newcomers enjoyed their weekend, and will be back for more.

The VDCA gives their entrants tons of track time. Even with this being a 2 day event, you get near hour of track time each day and when you factor in the gimmick race and free enduro that number grows. This is what newcomers wants in a event, more track time. In my 6 years now as racer attending VDCA events, I came to it at the time I guess group 1 and 3 numbers were rising, as I always had good class fields to race with and good racers and cars in those classes, I have also seen growth in FV, FF, and now big bore cars in the VDCA, so the word must be getting out, this and many other grassroots groups are about more track time and keeping it all fun.

Now on personal level I didn't choose this path for me into vintage racing, a generous, and kind friend made it happen for me, I think he knew what I needed more than I did. I can't say it was great time for me to take this on, I was dealing with my cancer, then later a divorce and now relocating my business. I keep telling myself, all this will soon level out, and I will have more time to race. So after 6 years of participating, observing and studying all things vintage racing, where and with whom do I see my future in vintage racing, I see with the group that brought me to the dance, the VDCA. Sorry I don't want to do 8-10 races a years, I don't have the time, money, or energy to do that anymore, so now this is about quality, more so than quantity. I want to maybe race 3-4 times a year, and the VDCA offers me that with good events at good venues and good field of competition to do it with, what else I could ask for. Now with that said, without bashing other groups, or events, this is simply what I want to do, the real question is am I alone, I don't think so.

Now as a longtime SCCA racer, I can tell you as many can, the SCCA had it's own level of drama. So what do I like about the VDCA as a group most of all, the lack of drama, and it's grassroots feel. I am sure many of you can relate with your area's grassroot group, whether it be the VRG, the VSCDA, or other grassroots groups. Heck the only thing I can see the VDCA could work on is marketing better to get the word out better to the masses. I know at least two MG racers who recently sold their cars, stating they were selling their cars for lack of similar competition, both lived in GA, and as far I know neither ever raced with the VDCA, because if they had they may have kept their MG race cars.







Edited by Hap Waldrop (11/12/17 08:58 AM)
_________________________
Hap Waldrop
Acme Speed Shop 864-370-3000
www.acmespeedshop.com
MG/Triumph Performance Street/Race Engines
The Vintage Production Car Festival
https://www.facebook.com/vintageproductioncarfestival

Top
#14317 - 12/01/17 02:00 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: ]
rick haynes
Unregistered


I learned that the Mazda Miata heritage cup racers will have their entry fees subsidized by Tony's organization next year. Is that true?
If it is and along with the priority being on the Trans-am cars during the weekends and a continuing drop in the traditional vintage car entries,
maybe it is time to stop the pretense and just call it "SRA", it seems a better description at this point.
rick haynes


Edited by rick haynes (12/01/17 03:49 AM)

Top
#14319 - 12/01/17 08:40 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: ]
V8vairmike Offline
Winner

Registered: 05/10/14
Posts: 444
I talked to Tony on the phone and we exchanged emails a few times about my V8 Car/ProAM and if you looked at the 2018 Schedule the Corvairs/Stingers are the featured car at VIR.
Hes very easy to talk to. He went out of his way to explain a few things and I respect what hes doing with SVRA,as with Vintage racing and business theres alot of people to please.
Call him,Email him,im sure he reads this forum and would like your input at a more personnel level than this forum.
I like 8 lap races,im Vintage just like my car,an Enduro if i want to go longer.
As far as the extras,yea im there to race but my wife likes all that other stuff.
Just Like HSRs Hutchison Island,my wifes favorite race cause she hangs out in Savannah most of the weekend.
My new Favorite is the VDCA Season Finale at Roebling,No frilles,just fun with a great group of drivers, the only Big Rigs you might see is Sasco or Bob Woodmans tire trucks.
Plenty of racing just pick the ones you like and have fun. Mike

Top
#14325 - 12/04/17 04:08 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: ]
Rus'L Online   content
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/17/14
Posts: 53
Loc: Rochester, NY
Originally Posted By: rick haynes
I learned that the Mazda Miata heritage cup racers will have their entry fees subsidized by Tony's organization next year. Is that true?
If it is and along with the priority being on the Trans-am cars during the weekends and a continuing drop in the traditional vintage car entries,
maybe it is time to stop the pretense and just call it "SRA", it seems a better description at this point.
rick haynes


The Mazda Miata Heritage Cup cars had lower entry fees in 2017 also. So, nothing new there. And I thought Mazda was subsidizing that through sponsorship, but that was purely my assumption, not based on any knowledge of the situation.

And Mazda Miata Heritage Cup cars are vintage cars. They are essentially as old as your Group 1 cars were when vintage racing first started...

Top
#14326 - 12/04/17 07:33 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: ]
rick haynes
Unregistered


Rus,
So the older vintage cars were discriminated against ,entry fee wise, last year too. That's good to know but I do wonder if everybody paying the full entry fee
price for the same thing knew it? And plus they all get to paddock on the grass too. You are not persuading anybody Mazda Miatas are vintage cars , if they were Mazda would not be subsidizing the entry fees, If they actually are doing that, which I would bet they are not. I think Tony is doing it to get the numbers up.

Rus , you can try to spin this as hard as you like but the fact is, a SXRA weekend looks less and less like a vintage racing event and more like a ?????????????,
not really sure what it looks like any more.

rick haynes

Top
#14327 - 12/05/17 12:25 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: ]
Rus'L Online   content
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/17/14
Posts: 53
Loc: Rochester, NY
Originally Posted By: rick haynes
Rus,
So the older vintage cars were discriminated against ,entry fee wise, last year too. That's good to know but I do wonder if everybody paying the full entry fee
price for the same thing knew it?


It was stated clearly on the entry form. Hiding in plain site? Only if you can't read...

Quote:
And plus they all get to paddock on the grass too. You are not persuading anybody Mazda Miatas are vintage cars ,


Not all Miatas are allowed to race. How old are the cars that are allowed to race?

Many consider the first Walter Mitty Challenge to be the start of vintage racing in this country. The first one was in 1977. How old was your vintage car in 1977? How does that compare with the age of the Miatas which are considered vintage today?

And remember, other vintage groups are starting to allow the older Miatas into their events.

Quote:
if they were Mazda would not be subsidizing the entry fees, If they actually are doing that, which I would bet they are not. I think Tony is doing it to get the numbers up.


Depends on your definition of subsidize. I'm assuming there is some sort of sponsorship deal going on here. In exchange, I'm sure Mazda would like to see this particular class be well subscribed. So, if they get a discount to accommodate this need, is that part of a sponsorship deal or subsidizing?

Quote:
Rus , you can try to spin this as hard as you like but the fact is,


I'm not doing any spinning. I'm not even arguing this point. I'm just stating some facts. You're the one spinning like a top...

Top
#14328 - 12/05/17 12:54 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Rus'L]
Alfaromeo1 Online   content
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 93
Loc: IL
Well said Rus
_________________________
Terry R. Stahly
Bloomington, IL 72 Alfa GTV 2000
Grp 8 VSCDA, SVRA, Midwest Counsel, HSR

www.stahly.com
www.4qte.com

Top
#14330 - 12/05/17 02:22 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Rus'L]
rick haynes
Unregistered


Rus
I don't see many SXRA entry forms but I will guess you are right about it being in plain site. In fact potential participants seeing that two-tier entry fee scheme might account for the dramatic drop in entries at SXRA events. If I was thinking about running a vintage race that bit of unfairness would certainly tell me something about how important I was to the organization. Could be others feel the same way.

And subsidizing is where 2 entrants pay a different amount to do the same thing.
I bet that's pretty clear to the ones writing the bigger check.

rick haynes


Edited by rick haynes (12/05/17 02:24 PM)

Top
#14347 - 01/02/18 07:11 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: ]
tabs Offline
Winner

Registered: 04/25/12
Posts: 404
Wow, I have been gone for a long time. lol Maybe the New B sedan series will solve all the problems? It surely won't hurt. lol

But while I was gone, Rick Parent from SVRA contacted me because he wanted to create a National B sedan Championship series. We are coming into our 9th season of the T.A.B.S Trans Am B Sedan 2.5 Challenge series at VSCDA. T.A.B.S West Coast is in its 5 th season I think? These 2 groups contain the bulk of "organized" B Sedan racing.
Rick, is personally a big fan of B Sedan racing. So this is his hard work to get more B Sedans on track for all Clubs. No, he hasn't lost his mind, SVRA still pays him. So yes he wants more cars at SVRA events. But VSCDA and VARA and other club events count towards points to the Big Championship race at COTA in 2018.
So dump your Production cars and relive the glory years of TA B Sedan racing from 1966-1979!
https://svra.com/news/svra-announces-b-sedan-national-regional-championships/

Cheers,
Steve

Top
#14349 - 01/08/18 09:16 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: ]
rick haynes
Unregistered


I will be a mildly interested observer of what happens this year in the story of SVXA. My prediction is the b-sedan deal will go the same way as the gold seal cars championship or what ever it was. Which is to say nowhere. I think too many racers have written off SXRA as a vintage organization they want to run with and I just don't see that changing. In any market once a customer has a bad experience it is hard to get them to come back for a second look. This is especially true when there are so many attractive alternatives with better reputations.

But we will see, as has been pointed out to me many times " It's not my money"
so it is only out of curiosity I follow the goings on. Kind of like looking at
a car accident and being thankful it isn't you.

rick haynes


Edited by rick haynes (01/09/18 12:32 AM)

Top
#14497 - 03/10/18 09:16 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Anonymous]
Mike Clifford Offline
Amateur racer

Registered: 07/25/14
Posts: 110
Loc: Hopewell Junction, NY
As someone who is decidedly a good distance away from a mailbox at a retirement home, the future of vintage racing is a topic which occupies my mind pretty frequently. There is no easy answer for the reasons stated in this (pretty depressing) thread: unclear goals for the sport as a whole, lack of agreement about the seriousness of competition, shifting entry/prep rules, different approaches to events by different clubs, model year cutoff dates, etc.

That all said, I believe it's far from terminal and there are encouraging signs. SVRA is drawing big crowds at many of their events, and I think this is a key factor in drawing new competitors. Young people don't have these cars for a number of reasons, but the most important reason is they don't know these cars exist. Attending an event with their family, with friends, or alone is a good way to start that ball rolling. The universally friendly and chatty nature of vintage racers is a great way to add momentum.

To that point, most young people simply can't afford vintage racing as it stands. One big way to help that is by allowing cars like early Miatas, E30s, and Mk1/2 Rabbits to compete. They're all approaching or exceeding 30 now, the first two at least have larger active racing organizations, and young people like them. It's no guarantee, but you get those guys attending, let them see these awesome older cars in action (and find out they aren't as slow as they look), and some may decide to "make the jump" in the future. It sure seems like a better plan than letting the sport die on the vine in 10 years.

This is coming from a guy with a shop where every car but his 240Z was built before 1970, so don't think I don't love the older stuff.

It's my belief social media and technology are where the sport struggles the most, and that's why I've tried to do my part in increasing that presence. I'm "winging it" with my efforts, but if more groups made efforts like SVRA does to release media online I think it would help engage more younger people--fans and racers alike.

I don't have any more answers than anyone else here, but I just wanted to inject a little enthusiasm and hope into this thread.


Edited by Mike Clifford (03/11/18 03:38 AM)
_________________________
Interested in vintage cars and vintage racing? Photos, videos, our race schedule, and more can be found at www.michaelsvintageracing.com !

Top
#14498 - 03/10/18 11:20 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Anonymous]
Alfaromeo1 Online   content
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 93
Loc: IL
Agreed many of the issues you bring up can be corrected.

Mike makes a good point, we take a lot for granted and a more concerted effort promoting Vintage/Amatuer racing is sorely needed to keep our sport viable and see it grow.

I had never heard of Vintage Racing until I was fifty years old despite being car and racing nut all my life. I had been to sixty Indy car races, Nascar and F1 races, tracked my Ferrari 360 at Autobahn and a couple of FCA events. But until one of my buddies brought his Alfa GTV to one of our track days I I had never heard of or knew the average person could race cars. Had I known about Vintage or other amateur racing I would have been racing twenty-five years earlier.

You might think where have you been? All around the world and did practically everything known to man so don't take for granted that people know about our sport. I doubt 98% of the people in this country are aware of Vintage racing. I was somewhat aware of SCCA from car mags, but I always thought it was something reserved for semi-pro types and not something the average person can do.

Mike is right, social media is very powerful while SVRA has done the best job of promoting the sport who are we promoting it to? Is it just being promoted to the choir who is already inolved in VR or trying to get more new people involved by letting them know more about it?

Perhaps a national organization instead of all the splinter groups with a cohesive plan or raising the awareness of Vintage Racing would be a better approach. I think just a good Q & A of what its about and how to get involved and basic awareness that it exists is a big step forward. I have to believe there a lot of people that if they knew they could participate in this sport would be all over it.

If just $20 of each vintage racers dues were spent on social media promoting this sport and educating the public just guessing thats probably $150,000 to $200,000 a year and that goes a long way on social media.

Organizations need to accept that fifty year old cars have evolved over the last fifty years and look at rules in a more common sense manner instead of running people off or making it difficult to run in other series. Sometimes it seems like there are too many chiefs with their own ideas which make it more difficult for people to run other series which is silly. I know VSCDA use to let Midwest Counsel guys run a race or two with non conforming tires otherwise they would not buy a set of tires for one race as an example.

Figuring out ways to bring more people to our sport is far more important than fender flares or some of the stuff racers are hassled about. Having more cars to race with also brings out more of the existing racers I routinely pass on events with low car counts. Who cares if someone has something on his car that was not run in 1972? If aids in reliability or safety what difference does it make in most cases? Most of these things make no difference at all and even if some things help a car run a tenth or two of a second quicker so what, you don't even get a pencil if you win a race and few care anyway? At our level most drivers leave up to two+ seconds per lap on the table anyway, I know I normally do. If someone clearly has an unfair advantage it can be dealt with but most of the time that is not the case. Equalizing rules from time to time like Trans Am B-Sedan did with lowering the weight on Alfas to compete with Datsuns is a great way to keep it more competitive and probably more could be done for some other marques in this area also.

It is supposed to be about having fun and enjoying good comaradarie. Having more cars at the back marker, mid pack and front runners to race with is whats needed along with more track time. If that means combining some classes so be it, we spend way too much time, money and effort to travel to a race for inadequate track time. Increasing track time will most certainly increase car counts.







Edited by Alfaromeo1 (03/15/18 10:07 AM)
_________________________
Terry R. Stahly
Bloomington, IL 72 Alfa GTV 2000
Grp 8 VSCDA, SVRA, Midwest Counsel, HSR

www.stahly.com
www.4qte.com

Top
#14508 - 04/05/18 07:17 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Alfaromeo1]
dcb Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1027
I've waited a long time to add any sort of comment on this topic. Jack, I think Rick was wrong to beat up on you. I know you're always looking for the best way to keep this sport/hobby alive and well.

Speaking of that, I was at Road Atlanta last Friday for the SVRA/Trans Am event.... I've never left a race track feeling so empty. Without listing all the caveats, this blended event format just isn't right and certainly not fair to the traditional vintage crowd. And I hope that the surviving vintage racing organizations don't try to morph into something like this. I think most vintage racers know that they are not very important in the greater scheme of racing, but this format just rubs their face in it. Sorry Tony, it's my honest assessment.

Dave Brown

Top
#14509 - 04/05/18 09:15 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: dcb]
Doug Escriva Offline
Amateur racer

Registered: 03/08/11
Posts: 141
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: dcb
I've waited a long time to add any sort of comment on this topic. Jack, I think Rick was wrong to beat up on you. I know you're always looking for the best way to keep this sport/hobby alive and well.

Speaking of that, I was at Road Atlanta last Friday for the SVRA/Trans Am event.... I've never left a race track feeling so empty. Without listing all the caveats, this blended event format just isn't right and certainly not fair to the traditional vintage crowd. And I hope that the surviving vintage racing organizations don't try to morph into something like this. I think most vintage racers know that they are not very important in the greater scheme of racing, but this format just rubs their face in it. Sorry Tony, it's my honest assessment.

Dave Brown


Oh great, SVRA is bringing the Trans AM Series to our annual Portland Historic Races this year.
I plan to compete as this is my home track and it will be the season opener for me after a full engine rebuild. I hope they leave some room in the paddick for us low lifes......

https://svra.com/events/2018-portland-vintage-racing-festival/
_________________________
Dougie
ESCUDERIA AUSTIN-HEALEY
'57 AH 100-SIX MM # 414
Florida Green GN.1
FIA G2

Top
Page 4 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >

VARA News
Who's Online
4 registered (TopGearTech, JFW, Rus'L, Alfaromeo1), 287 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Bosco, Nick6981, Scaniasteve, JuanBecker, 1000beats
757 Registered Users