Put-In-Bay ~ Sept. 24-27, 2018 MARK YOUR CALENDARS!!!
HSR Mitty, April 27-29
NEW POSTS
Diminutive Engines...Skinny Tyres...Good Racing.
by zuzulo56
Today at 12:32 AM
Did I miss the bigger picture?
by dcb
04/20/18 09:53 AM
TATRA T603...etc.
by Amélie Renoncule
04/15/18 03:51 PM
"The Wallow/The Roll & Slide!"
by zuzulo56
04/12/18 02:36 AM
New Administrator / Forum Director
by TopGearTech
04/05/18 10:37 AM
SVRA. Road Atlanta
by dynalead
03/28/18 06:28 PM
Scarab F-1 at Riverside ~ 1960
by Amélie Renoncule
03/26/18 05:51 PM
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#14413 - 01/27/18 01:02 PM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: dcb]
Alfaromeo1 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 89
Loc: IL
I always got a kick out of that. 8/10th at Road America where you run 2:45 would translate into a 3:30 lap.

At a 2mi track like Blackhawk Farms if your running 1:25's throttle back to 8/10ths and you're running 1:46's. I am not sure I could even do that and might be a bigger menace running that slow because it would be hard to focus and concentrate. Kind of like after the checker is waved it is easy to screw up when you are not at full tilt.

We all get the meaning which is to stay on the track, don't hit anyone/anything or cause problems by driving over your head. We are not professionals or even good amateurs for the most part.

However Mike is right the front half of the field is generally driving about as hard as they can within reason.


Edited by Alfaromeo1 (01/27/18 02:36 PM)
_________________________
Terry R. Stahly
Bloomington, IL 72 Alfa GTV 2000
Grp 8 VSCDA, SVRA, Midwest Counsel, HSR

www.stahly.com
www.4qte.com

Top
#14414 - 01/27/18 02:18 PM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: dcb]
ProCoach Offline
Champion

Registered: 01/15/11
Posts: 710
Loc: Virginia International Raceway
Originally Posted By: dcb
I like the SCCA events because I can race to the best of my ability and that's what's expected from everyone else on the track - none of the 8/10s crap that always makes me think someone is looking over my shoulder.

Vintage racing is a little too pointless - by that I mean literally there's no particular reason to be there except to play with your car. That's cool, but it makes you feel like everything is practice and not a race. I definitely enjoyed the vintage atmosphere and maybe that's only possible because of the former point. And vintage racing is too often a three-day event and as mentioned that doesn't really appeal to me.

My car, and my age make me a more likely vintage racing candidate, but at the moment I just can't get worked up about it. When there was a strong group 1 in SVRA I don't think I ever had more fun racing, but that's not the case anymore. So now I guess I'm just going to have to find a way to keep from getting beat up by the FP Miatas and keep my emphasis on racing with the SCCA.

Dave Brown


Dave, front of the pack historic racing reminds me of SCCA National Racing twenty or twenty-five years ago, when people drove REALLY hard but really well, and it was rare there was contact, unless someone made a mistake or tripped over lapped traffic. We all went National racing if we could, because it was cleaner than Regionals! laugh

Personally, I can't "throttle back" in the car. I race the same in both places, in my Prod cars and my Sports 2000 cars. Hard as I can and clean as I can. A group of us are at or under the SCCA lap record for Sports 2000 in cars that meet RunOffs level scrutiny (2012 SRCS, last year it was a National class), so I don't see the 8/10's thing happening, unless it's those further back in the pack.

When I ran my FP Fiat 124 and EP Alfa, I could run up front in historics, bolt slicks on it and be within two seconds of the lap record, ON the podium, with no changes at the Nationals I ran. It was always super important for me to have cars that met all the SCCA GCR and PCS (and SRCS) regulations but still could run in historic racing, with a change of tires in Prod. It still is. I'll run a limited National program this year and a full one next year to qualify for the RunOffs at my home track.

In historics, if one of us makes a mistake, touches someone or hits something hard, we take our medicine, as the stewards in SCCA USED to do in Club racing. And they doled punishment out liberally, more consistently than in historic racing, think Fred Schmucker... wink.

Nearly EVERY major (high turnout) historic race for the last thirty years has been at least three days... Heck, most SCCA Regionals and all Nationals for a long time have had Test Days added before, so machts nichts.

It used to be, before the Miatas were developed, that the old cars (British/German/Italian, yes ITALIAN) could run close and sometimes beat the Prod Miatas, but now, the delta is wider. So it's more like pissing into the wind, IMO.

I think it's your outlook, not the car and not your age, that cause you to feel unmoored. Your second sentence says it all... I hope you can find something that works.
_________________________
-Peter Krause
Professional Race Instruction and Coaching
Data and Video Sales, Interpretation and Training
"The Driver is the Greatest Performance Variable"
www.peterkrause.net

Top
#14415 - 01/27/18 02:49 PM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: dcb]
hoffman900 Offline
Champion

Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 556
Loc: New Jersey
Drivers at the front of SCCA aren’t driving well now? British cars aren’t still competitive?
Come on, Peter, really?

It seems a part of vintage racing for some is really an extension of them looking in the mirror and seeing something that really isn’t there...

I saw Hap made a great post on another forum about this topic. I’ll let him share if he wants.


Edited by hoffman900 (01/27/18 02:51 PM)

Top
#14416 - 01/27/18 05:49 PM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: dcb]
rick haynes
Unregistered


I concur with Dave Brown about the vintage racing and I saw the effort to
curb the competitive spirit to differing degrees with each organization.

For me the end came at Gratton, Mich one Friday. It was the 1st time with this vintage group , I don't even remember which one, Vdabcd something, and I went there to race with Dave. After the 1st practice session, one where I followed Dave around and was with out any type of incident , a official came over to me at my car and said, I drove too aggressively and he was "putting me on the trailer" Adding that they just didn't want to see my type of driving at their races. ????

After talking to Dave and an offer to move up to a faster group was turned down by "The official" I went home Friday after noon. I will say I didn't try too hard to rectify the situation and stay because I figured if he didn't like the way Dave and I were cruising around on a Friday morning practice on a green track he was going to really dislike how I race. At the time we all wondered why he was OK with Dave.
I went to a few more vintage races after that but that pretty well ended my interest in the whole vintage deal. By that time SVRA G-1 racing was DOA too so there was no reason to go on.

Later on I found out from 3rd parties the 'official' was laying for me and it might be said there was nothing that I could have done that would have been OK with him. Might my reputation have preceded me? I have to think so.

But interestingly I had comments from many other G-1 drivers on Friday saying they were happy to see me at their clubs races. I also heard later that the official was not very popular with his own club members and they were not going to let him run any more races.

The moral to the story is there are a lot of unseen currents flowing around in vintage racing, Egos, personal agendas and such that you don't see at 1st but come up later. And of course it does not help if you are a very outspoken person like I am.

Dave, that was a while ago, did I get all the facts straight?

rick haynes




Edited by rick haynes (01/27/18 06:22 PM)

Top
#14418 - 01/27/18 11:24 PM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: ]
dcb Online   content
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1026
Originally Posted By: rick haynes

Dave, that was a while ago, did I get all the facts straight?

rick haynes


Straight enough. It was one of the more bizarre events in our combined checkered past with vintage racing. I think "the official" was channeling Tony who at the time did not think too highly of the two of us.

I actually had a pretty good time after you left - it pays to have a pretty face grin

I agree with everyone who has said that they race hard in vintage - I know you do. My only point was that I was always conscious of the fact that some official might take offense.

I had my physical on Friday and I think I'm good to go racing for another year or two, so who knows. I'll start with SCCA though, and if I'm a total bust again, well, we'll see....

Dave Brown

Top
#14433 - 02/05/18 12:46 AM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: WSR00]
dcb Online   content
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1026
Originally Posted By: WSR00
Racing of any sort is not the only thing in my life. I do enjoy it immensely and hope that the coming years will be kind to me to allow trips to the track when I have time.
I crank wrenches because I have to keep costs down, but I don't enter the realm of excessive compulsive race car development--that's OK if it toots your horn.
My life has been more than a little challenging/exciting before I finally got my first race car(46years old) so going to a weekend of driving my race cars is my weekend at the amusement park and a chance to hang out at a saloon with some of my best chums.
Don't care what types of cars are beginning to poke their noses under the tent, I am having a great time. And that is the real point isn't it?


Yes indeed it is!

As for what cars are beginning to poke their noses under the tent, the ones that aren't poking their noses under the tent are all the SCCA prod and sedan cars from the fourth quarter of the twentieth century. Why not? I just came across two more resurfaced Spridgets from the eighties - two cars with extensive and real racing history that are currently sidelined by most of the vintage organizations. This is simply bull-headed stupidity running amok.... to put it politely.

So lets see now, Formula Fords and Sports 2s from that era are cool, but not the prod and sedan cars because.... There is no because, because it's ridiculous Or in the case of SVRA, spec Miatas are cool - even get their own class, but not the prod and sedan cars that built the venues the Miatas now race on.

Why are these cars treated like a red-headed step child? I don't get it. Does the Depends crowd really exercise that much power over vintage racing?

And WSR00 There are those of us for whom cars and racing cars has been the focus of our adult life - for better or for worse - but I wouldn't have had it any other way. And I guess because of this lifetime pursuit we do have a little more complete picture - or at least a different one - than those with only a casual involvement. Perhaps that's why we scream at each other on these pages, it means something special to us.

Dave Brown


Edited by dcb (02/05/18 12:47 AM)

Top
#14435 - 02/05/18 09:20 AM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: dcb]
JFW Offline


Registered: 01/16/11
Posts: 2130
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: dcb


As for what cars are beginning to poke their noses under the tent, the ones that aren't poking their noses under the tent are all the SCCA prod and sedan cars from the fourth quarter of the twentieth century. Why not? I just came across two more resurfaced Spridgets from the eighties - two cars with extensive and real racing history that are currently sidelined by most of the vintage organizations. This is simply bull-headed stupidity running amok.... to put it politely.

Why are these cars treated like a red-headed step child? I don't get it. Does the Depends crowd really exercise that much power over vintage racing?

Dave Brown


Sadly, you are right and I agree. The "Depends crowd" does call the shots.

We have had an open door for those cars at HSR for the 5 years I have been there. We get 3 or 4 at the most at any event. Those folks just don't seem to respond to invitations.

Having said that, I also have no problem with "clubs" that don't have an open door. They have the right to dictate who they let in. Remember the VSCDA MGB story!
_________________________
Jack Woehrle

Top
#14458 - 02/12/18 07:58 AM Re: Evolution - what does it mean... if anything [Re: ]
Hap Waldrop Offline
Champion

Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 799
Loc: Greenville, SC
Originally Posted By: rick haynes
I concur with Dave Brown about the vintage racing and I saw the effort to
curb the competitive spirit to differing degrees with each organization.

For me the end came at Gratton, Mich one Friday. It was the 1st time with this vintage group , I don't even remember which one, Vdabcd something, and I went there to race with Dave. After the 1st practice session, one where I followed Dave around and was with out any type of incident , a official came over to me at my car and said, I drove too aggressively and he was "putting me on the trailer" Adding that they just didn't want to see my type of driving at their races. ????

After talking to Dave and an offer to move up to a faster group was turned down by "The official" I went home Friday after noon. I will say I didn't try too hard to rectify the situation and stay because I figured if he didn't like the way Dave and I were cruising around on a Friday morning practice on a green track he was going to really dislike how I race. At the time we all wondered why he was OK with Dave.
I went to a few more vintage races after that but that pretty well ended my interest in the whole vintage deal. By that time SVRA G-1 racing was DOA too so there was no reason to go on.

Later on I found out from 3rd parties the 'official' was laying for me and it might be said there was nothing that I could have done that would have been OK with him. Might my reputation have preceded me? I have to think so.

But interestingly I had comments from many other G-1 drivers on Friday saying they were happy to see me at their clubs races. I also heard later that the official was not very popular with his own club members and they were not going to let him run any more races.

The moral to the story is there are a lot of unseen currents flowing around in vintage racing, Egos, personal agendas and such that you don't see at 1st but come up later. And of course it does not help if you are a very outspoken person like I am.

Dave, that was a while ago, did I get all the facts straight?

rick haynes





Yeah that was F-Ued on so many levels. I never done well with officials or racers overstepping the boundaries of common sense, sportsmanship or abusing their power. I quite sure Rick I would have gotten in more trouble than you. I have not had deal with any of these issues in vintage racing, all of my attitude adjustments with folks happen in the SCCA, a few stewards, corner workers and a couple of drivers, who all for no good reason overstepped their power, sportsmanship and in the end they wished they had not. No I didn't slap the shit out of anyone, wanted to, no I used their own rule book to whip their own asses with smile

We all seen it more times than we need to, gross abuse of power, homey doesn't play that game. if I am in the wrong, then all you will hear from me is sorry and yes sir/mam, but if you hoo-doo with your position or power, then you are going to regret it, I will use your own system to make a fool out of you, done it my whole life outside of racing. Yeah I seen some of this in our racing, but nothing compared to things I had to deal with in business and the real world. However Rick I'm glad I wasn't you that day. Here's the deal it takes a big man not abuse his power or his position, and we live in a world with a lot of small-minded men. Overall this is great sport with a lot of great people involved in it, but we still have a few turds smile


Edited by Hap Waldrop (02/12/18 08:03 AM)
_________________________
Hap Waldrop
Acme Speed Shop 864-370-3000
www.acmespeedshop.com
MG/Triumph Performance Street/Race Engines
The Vintage Production Car Festival
https://www.facebook.com/vintageproductioncarfestival

Top
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2

VARA News
Who's Online
2 registered (zuzulo56, dcb), 240 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Nick6981, Scaniasteve, JuanBecker, 1000beats, PeaceFairy05
756 Registered Users