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#14510 - 04/05/18 11:33 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Doug Escriva]
dcb Online   content
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1026
Doug... and others,

I realize that I didn't make it clear in my post that I was there as a spectator and not as a racer. It could well be that my take away was not at all what the entrants felt.

Dave B

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#14511 - 04/06/18 09:28 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: dcb]
JFW Offline


Registered: 01/16/11
Posts: 2130
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: dcb
Jack, I think Rick was wrong to beat up on you. I know you're always looking for the best way to keep this sport/hobby alive and well.
Dave Brown


Thanks Dave...I gave him every chance to redeem himself, but he just couldn't do it.

He is like a run over dog that bites the people trying to save him.

At this point I can't even say I wish him well. Sad....




That guy tried to help so I bit his hand off.



_________________________
Jack Woehrle

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#14512 - 04/11/18 01:37 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Mike Clifford]
Firebird Offline
Professional

Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 320
Originally Posted By: Mike Clifford


To that point, most young people simply can't afford vintage racing as it stands. One big way to help that is by allowing cars like early Miatas, E30s, and Mk1/2 Rabbits to compete. They're all approaching or exceeding 30 now, the first two at least have larger active racing organizations, and young people like them. It's no guarantee, but you get those guys attending, let them see these awesome older cars in action (and find out they aren't as slow as they look), and some may decide to "make the jump" in the future. It sure seems like a better plan than letting the sport die on the vine in 10 years.

This is coming from a guy with a shop where every car but his 240Z was built before 1970, so don't think I don't love the older stuff.


I've owned 1960's cars since I bought my first car in 1976, and I would consider a younger guy in Vintage racing as someone mid 30's to mid 40's now, and I was that younger guy a few years back.
Finding the money was the easy part, finding a sanction, class and car was the hard part. As a younger guy then, I did not want to build a 1968 car to 1968 specs, I wanted to build a 1968 car using "some" modern technology underneath but keep the period look.
Racing an exact period correct 1968 car has no appeal to me what so ever, I suspect most, not all, younger people feel the same way.
I appreciate and respect the pedigree cars that are raced as was back in it's day, and when Vintage racing started these cars were not that old, nor the driver, now the cars and drivers 50-60+ and you're asking younger people to build replica's or purchase period cars they have no connection to?
Do not require people to build or race exactly that unless they chose that particular class, give them a class in which to build something they can relate to better. There's a reason the paddocks are old and grey, and it's got little to do with money.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with two 1968 cars, one period correct, one period appearing, running in the same run group, but in a different class. 90% of the time we're just racing whoever's around us anyway.

I read recently were one Vintage sanction was now allowing 80's to early 90's cars in, minus the Miata, that will bring in some younger people, classes for the Fox Mustang and 3rd gen F would be great, but then the older period 1960's-70's cars will die along with their owners as they'll have no one to appeal to so long as strict period correct dictates who can run them.

On a side note. If you want to cut costs for building and racing some period class cars, get rid of the unlimited RPMs and require pump gas.
Unfortunately, by the time the old guard does yield I'll have sold off everything and headed to the home myself.
_________________________
Gordon Slingerland
http://outlaw-vintage-racing.com/

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#14513 - 04/12/18 12:39 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Anonymous]
dcb Online   content
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1026
Do you remember the Vietnam era quip "to save the village we had to destroy the village"? Sometimes I think we're watching a version of that occur, not just in Vintage racing, but in all of the traditional amateur road racing organizations. What I mean is that the organizations seem to struggle so much with the income side of things that they no longer care about what is actually happening from the competitor's point of view. Do they ever even ask the competitors about things like car prep restrictions, race schedules/format, or what they'd like to see in a race weekend?

In hindsight, the SCCA of the 70's was pretty near optimal in terms of race format - class rules, run groups, weekend scheduling, race duration and even the number of classes. I say this because I was there and because I'm still racing, so I've seen the then and now. And though I never thought it at the time, I see now that a big part of its success was in the oversight and governing of all the above. Vintage struggles with class and car prep rules because it has no way of governing them and no interest in trying too. The modern SCCA struggles with weak participation in many classes because they allowed themselves to be too compliant with niche interest classes. Both struggle with putting together a meaningful weekend race schedule, IMHO.

For me, and I'd like to think for most, the best race weekends are the ones that I go home thinking that I did something meaningful, and not merely had a good time... at least so far as the two have different objectives. I don't spend the time and effort put into car prep to have a party. I want to at least think there is something a little more intelligently rewarding about it than a high-speed drivers ed experience and a beer party.

Trust me, I see how small my "accomplishments" are, but they still are important to me. So I hope we can find a way to save this Village without destroying it.

Dave Brown


Edited by dcb (04/12/18 12:41 AM)

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#14516 - 04/12/18 10:56 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Anonymous]
WSR00 Offline
Wannabe

Registered: 01/26/18
Posts: 2
meaningful and not merely had a good time????

What the hell, WHY would any one go out to flog some old race cars than to have a good time and a beer party. By all means put your life's self worth into a "proper" race event that feeds your "accomplishments" and is intelligently rewarding.

What ever happened to enjoying a really fun weekend with friends that feeds our fantasies --well not all of them, but those are for another web site--- and boils the blood. Maybe our activity should be renamed Vintage Almost Racing and WE DON'T GIVE A SHIT WHAT ANYONE ELSE THINKS!

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#14517 - 04/13/18 12:10 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: WSR00]
dcb Online   content
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1026
The point of my post is that somethings eating away at amateur road racing - vintage and SCCA - and I believe it is being swallowed up by its own purposelessness. With vintage, it's an intentional "achievement" meant to appeal to a certain audience. With the SCCA, it's a kind of victimization brought on by the evolution of the automobile in ways that didn't fit the original paradigm.

I accept that the depth of one's involvement is totally up the individual, so if you want to be there for the party, have at it. But to me that's not worth the effort or time. Racing is a skill, car prep is a skill, tuning is a skill, and in those rare moments when it all works in harmony, I find that "intelligently rewarding". Yea, I know, it's a mouthful, but I couldn't think of a better way to express myself.

And actually WSR00, as long as you're asking, I have had a pretty good life, and it has been rewarding, and road racing has been a part of that... why do you seem to have a problem with that?

Dave Brown

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#14518 - 04/13/18 11:34 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: dcb]
Alfaromeo1 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 89
Loc: IL
Dave why are you wasting your time with this guy?

His post (which is his 2nd post on VRRF) has nothing to do with the topic of track time?
_________________________
Terry R. Stahly
Bloomington, IL 72 Alfa GTV 2000
Grp 8 VSCDA, SVRA, Midwest Counsel, HSR

www.stahly.com
www.4qte.com

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#14522 - 04/16/18 07:33 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: dcb]
Doug Meis Offline
Winner

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 401
Loc: NC
Originally Posted By: dcb
I accept that the depth of one's involvement is totally up the individual, so if you want to be there for the party, have at it. But to me that's not worth the effort or time. Racing is a skill, car prep is a skill, tuning is a skill, and in those rare moments when it all works in harmony, I find that "intelligently rewarding". Yea, I know, it's a mouthful, but I couldn't think of a better way to express myself.

Dave Brown


I think I understand the point you are trying to make. When a successful effort and maybe a race win requires that you put forward a superior effort of prepping, tuning and racing, it is rewarding and meaningful. Meaningful on a personal level and not to the wider world. The lack of rules stability and enforcement in vintage racing can make it frustratingly difficult to find that kind of competition. You need to have a core group of competitors that prepping to a high standard in a well defined class/group where the tuning and driving are also at a high standard. Succeeding in that environment is not easy.

It actually reminds me of the dialogue that precedes the famous "Racing is life" quote from "LeMans".

"Lisa Belgetti: When people risk their lives, shouldn't it be for something very important?

Michael Delaney: Well, it better be.

Lisa Belgetti: But what is so important about driving faster than anyone else?

Michael Delaney: Lotta people go through life doing things badly. Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting."

Driving around a race track and having a beer party is fine but anyone can do that "badly". DCB and I would not find that particularly rewarding or meaningful.


Edited by Doug Meis (04/16/18 08:46 AM)

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#14523 - 04/16/18 08:56 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Anonymous]
Alfaromeo1 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 89
Loc: IL
I am all about running up front and winning that is how I am wired which is not necessarly a good thing. It cost 3x as much to do so, you break down more often along with other frustrations one of which is often nobody to race with in your class at many events.

But I am also equally interested in the camaraderie part of the weekend which is equally important to me. Only 10% of your time is spent on the track so you better enjoy the people, helping others, learning from others and shooting the breeze, lauging etc.

Winning really doesnt mean squat and it means even less to anyone besides yourself, like next to nothing. I like to win but I also envy the guys running mid pack who are enjoying good battles too and winning is only fun when you are racing someone you have to be on your game to beat.

I am not 100% sure why I race and have tried to figure that out for a long time. It is a lot like golf in that its about not making mistakes, realizing you are not going to be perfect but seeing how well you can do. I measure and get a sense of pride when I learn how to move to the next skill level such as being smoother, more consistent, patient, carrying more exit speed, braking better racing others better etc.

It is especially fun when the car is running great, handling great, your driving at your best and you have good battles and racing going on and lastly at a big event that is kind of a win win all the way around. Those moments are elusive but remembered and treasured and induce a lot of pride when they happen.


Edited by Alfaromeo1 (04/16/18 09:25 AM)
_________________________
Terry R. Stahly
Bloomington, IL 72 Alfa GTV 2000
Grp 8 VSCDA, SVRA, Midwest Counsel, HSR

www.stahly.com
www.4qte.com

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#14524 - 04/16/18 10:01 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Anonymous]
Doug Meis Offline
Winner

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 401
Loc: NC
First, you're pretty much making my point when you talk about how satisfying it is when you do it well.

Second, I'm not knocking the beer parties or dismissing the importance of the social side. If you took out the social side and the friends I have made over the years, I wouldn't still be doing this.

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#14525 - 04/16/18 10:22 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Doug Meis]
Alfaromeo1 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 89
Loc: IL
I agree, personallyI dont care too much for the beer parties and other hoopla unless there is a good speaker from time to time. I meant just quality time during the day while you're sitting around. Most evenings I'm so tired from a long day we go get a beer and somethign to eat and skip the festivities, I can party at home.

While some enjoy tinkering and working on their cars all day I am not one of those. I/we do it when necessary but it's normally very minimal unless something breaks. May spend some time looking at data but generally don't even do that.

I prefer to meet new people, get to know others better, and get on my scooter and move around and shoot the breeze with ten or fifteen other racers I know who are scattered around the paddock.
_________________________
Terry R. Stahly
Bloomington, IL 72 Alfa GTV 2000
Grp 8 VSCDA, SVRA, Midwest Counsel, HSR

www.stahly.com
www.4qte.com

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#14526 - 04/16/18 06:58 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Anonymous]
V8vairmike Offline
Winner

Registered: 05/10/14
Posts: 443
Ive come to really enjoy racing with VDCA. I wish i could run more but for now its just once or twice a year.
Nice people to race with. Mike

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#14527 - 04/18/18 08:54 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Firebird]
Mike Clifford Offline
Amateur racer

Registered: 07/25/14
Posts: 108
Loc: Hopewell Junction, NY
Originally Posted By: Firebird
Originally Posted By: Mike Clifford


To that point, most young people simply can't afford vintage racing as it stands. One big way to help that is by allowing cars like early Miatas, E30s, and Mk1/2 Rabbits to compete. They're all approaching or exceeding 30 now, the first two at least have larger active racing organizations, and young people like them. It's no guarantee, but you get those guys attending, let them see these awesome older cars in action (and find out they aren't as slow as they look), and some may decide to "make the jump" in the future. It sure seems like a better plan than letting the sport die on the vine in 10 years.

This is coming from a guy with a shop where every car but his 240Z was built before 1970, so don't think I don't love the older stuff.


I've owned 1960's cars since I bought my first car in 1976, and I would consider a younger guy in Vintage racing as someone mid 30's to mid 40's now, and I was that younger guy a few years back.
Finding the money was the easy part, finding a sanction, class and car was the hard part. As a younger guy then, I did not want to build a 1968 car to 1968 specs, I wanted to build a 1968 car using "some" modern technology underneath but keep the period look.
Racing an exact period correct 1968 car has no appeal to me what so ever, I suspect most, not all, younger people feel the same way.
I appreciate and respect the pedigree cars that are raced as was back in it's day, and when Vintage racing started these cars were not that old, nor the driver, now the cars and drivers 50-60+ and you're asking younger people to build replica's or purchase period cars they have no connection to?
Do not require people to build or race exactly that unless they chose that particular class, give them a class in which to build something they can relate to better. There's a reason the paddocks are old and grey, and it's got little to do with money.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with two 1968 cars, one period correct, one period appearing, running in the same run group, but in a different class. 90% of the time we're just racing whoever's around us anyway.

I read recently were one Vintage sanction was now allowing 80's to early 90's cars in, minus the Miata, that will bring in some younger people, classes for the Fox Mustang and 3rd gen F would be great, but then the older period 1960's-70's cars will die along with their owners as they'll have no one to appeal to so long as strict period correct dictates who can run them.

On a side note. If you want to cut costs for building and racing some period class cars, get rid of the unlimited RPMs and require pump gas.
Unfortunately, by the time the old guard does yield I'll have sold off everything and headed to the home myself.


I'm curious to hear more about your opinion on this. What modern technology did you want to use but were unable to? Your point about different classes is fine with me to a point; silhouette racing kind of misses the boat on why a lot of people do this in my opinion, and would make the experience less unique than it is otherwise. I do agree the issue is relevance, though, hence my statement you quoted.

I had this idea yesterday and I wonder what effect it would have, if any:

Run/allow a class for cars like Miatas and E30s which mandates bias-ply tires. I think that would be a fun way for those guys to see the appeal of a more active, more vintage driving experience with a direct point of reference in their previous driving. I know that "sliding is fast" piece of the puzzle is where a lot of the fun comes from in my case, at least. Maybe it would help bridge that understanding gap a little.
_________________________
Interested in vintage cars and vintage racing? Photos, videos, our race schedule, and more can be found at www.michaelsvintageracing.com !

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#14528 - 04/20/18 09:53 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Mike Clifford]
dcb Online   content
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1026
Originally Posted By: Mike Clifford

I had this idea yesterday and I wonder what effect it would have, if any:

Run/allow a class for cars like Miatas and E30s which mandates bias-ply tires. I think that would be a fun way for those guys to see the appeal of a more active, more vintage driving experience with a direct point of reference in their previous driving. I know that "sliding is fast" piece of the puzzle is where a lot of the fun comes from in my case, at least. Maybe it would help bridge that understanding gap a little.


Mike,

I think you'd be surprised how little the difference between the "feel" of slicks and a good vintage legal tire is. Granted the slicks are faster, but the seat of the pants feel is not that different... at least in my experience. That said, the vintage tires are perhaps easier to "collect" if you get out of sorts... but not much.

While there is little doubt that Mazda and the Miata in particular have been the salvation of road racing in America, I see no reason in particular to give them yet another venue - they've plenty of ways to go racing. Those of us still trying to enjoy our old cars need to focus on what's important to make the most of our participation.

There is little doubt that vintage cars are disappearing from the bottom up, but there still is a healthy central core of 70s and 80s cars. Open the venue to them first. They exist in droves and sit largely idle because of some nonsensical belief that we must cling to a distant past that no one actually remembers any more.

I think the interest expressed in bringing currently legal Spridgets to the VSCDA 60th anniversary of the Sprite events - and VSCDA willingness to accept them - could be made to pay off with the introduction of these cars - and drivers - to vintage events.

Many of these drivers are looking for the next step with their cars as the more modern cars are not so slowly edging them out of being competitive in SCCA. And even if the drivers bail and get into a modern car, their cars will still be out there for someone to race vintage with... if universally allowed by the vintage organizations.

I think "harvesting" them first would be a better plan than worrying about creating another venue for the Miata.

Dave Brown

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