Put-In-Bay ~ Sept. 24-27, 2018 MARK YOUR CALENDARS!!!
HSR Mitty, April 27-29
NEW POSTS
VRR Migration Update
by TopGearTech
08/14/18 08:33 AM
"You may not reply to announcement."
by TopGearTech
08/13/18 07:30 PM
Forum Migration to Xenforo Platform
by TopGearTech
08/10/18 05:21 PM
Vintage Race Rules
by JFW
08/07/18 06:25 AM
VARA 2018... Schedule & Events
by zuzulo56
08/07/18 01:51 AM
I sold my shop building, now what :)
by hoffman900
08/02/18 09:36 PM
VRG @ NJMP
by hoffman900
08/01/18 08:28 PM
Bucket track travels
by zuzulo56
07/21/18 12:46 AM
Page 5 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#14510 - 04/05/18 11:33 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Doug Escriva]
dcb Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1029
Doug... and others,

I realize that I didn't make it clear in my post that I was there as a spectator and not as a racer. It could well be that my take away was not at all what the entrants felt.

Dave B

Top
#14511 - 04/06/18 09:28 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: dcb]
JFW Online   content


Registered: 01/16/11
Posts: 2135
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: dcb
Jack, I think Rick was wrong to beat up on you. I know you're always looking for the best way to keep this sport/hobby alive and well.
Dave Brown


Thanks Dave...I gave him every chance to redeem himself, but he just couldn't do it.

He is like a run over dog that bites the people trying to save him.

At this point I can't even say I wish him well. Sad....




That guy tried to help so I bit his hand off.



_________________________
Jack Woehrle

Top
#14512 - 04/11/18 01:37 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Mike Clifford]
Firebird Offline
Professional

Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 323
Originally Posted By: Mike Clifford


To that point, most young people simply can't afford vintage racing as it stands. One big way to help that is by allowing cars like early Miatas, E30s, and Mk1/2 Rabbits to compete. They're all approaching or exceeding 30 now, the first two at least have larger active racing organizations, and young people like them. It's no guarantee, but you get those guys attending, let them see these awesome older cars in action (and find out they aren't as slow as they look), and some may decide to "make the jump" in the future. It sure seems like a better plan than letting the sport die on the vine in 10 years.

This is coming from a guy with a shop where every car but his 240Z was built before 1970, so don't think I don't love the older stuff.


I've owned 1960's cars since I bought my first car in 1976, and I would consider a younger guy in Vintage racing as someone mid 30's to mid 40's now, and I was that younger guy a few years back.
Finding the money was the easy part, finding a sanction, class and car was the hard part. As a younger guy then, I did not want to build a 1968 car to 1968 specs, I wanted to build a 1968 car using "some" modern technology underneath but keep the period look.
Racing an exact period correct 1968 car has no appeal to me what so ever, I suspect most, not all, younger people feel the same way.
I appreciate and respect the pedigree cars that are raced as was back in it's day, and when Vintage racing started these cars were not that old, nor the driver, now the cars and drivers 50-60+ and you're asking younger people to build replica's or purchase period cars they have no connection to?
Do not require people to build or race exactly that unless they chose that particular class, give them a class in which to build something they can relate to better. There's a reason the paddocks are old and grey, and it's got little to do with money.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with two 1968 cars, one period correct, one period appearing, running in the same run group, but in a different class. 90% of the time we're just racing whoever's around us anyway.

I read recently were one Vintage sanction was now allowing 80's to early 90's cars in, minus the Miata, that will bring in some younger people, classes for the Fox Mustang and 3rd gen F would be great, but then the older period 1960's-70's cars will die along with their owners as they'll have no one to appeal to so long as strict period correct dictates who can run them.

On a side note. If you want to cut costs for building and racing some period class cars, get rid of the unlimited RPMs and require pump gas.
Unfortunately, by the time the old guard does yield I'll have sold off everything and headed to the home myself.
_________________________
Gordon Slingerland
http://outlaw-vintage-racing.com/

Top
#14513 - 04/12/18 12:39 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Anonymous]
dcb Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1029
Do you remember the Vietnam era quip "to save the village we had to destroy the village"? Sometimes I think we're watching a version of that occur, not just in Vintage racing, but in all of the traditional amateur road racing organizations. What I mean is that the organizations seem to struggle so much with the income side of things that they no longer care about what is actually happening from the competitor's point of view. Do they ever even ask the competitors about things like car prep restrictions, race schedules/format, or what they'd like to see in a race weekend?

In hindsight, the SCCA of the 70's was pretty near optimal in terms of race format - class rules, run groups, weekend scheduling, race duration and even the number of classes. I say this because I was there and because I'm still racing, so I've seen the then and now. And though I never thought it at the time, I see now that a big part of its success was in the oversight and governing of all the above. Vintage struggles with class and car prep rules because it has no way of governing them and no interest in trying too. The modern SCCA struggles with weak participation in many classes because they allowed themselves to be too compliant with niche interest classes. Both struggle with putting together a meaningful weekend race schedule, IMHO.

For me, and I'd like to think for most, the best race weekends are the ones that I go home thinking that I did something meaningful, and not merely had a good time... at least so far as the two have different objectives. I don't spend the time and effort put into car prep to have a party. I want to at least think there is something a little more intelligently rewarding about it than a high-speed drivers ed experience and a beer party.

Trust me, I see how small my "accomplishments" are, but they still are important to me. So I hope we can find a way to save this Village without destroying it.

Dave Brown


Edited by dcb (04/12/18 12:41 AM)

Top
#14516 - 04/12/18 10:56 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Anonymous]
WSR00 Offline
Wannabe

Registered: 01/26/18
Posts: 2
meaningful and not merely had a good time????

What the hell, WHY would any one go out to flog some old race cars than to have a good time and a beer party. By all means put your life's self worth into a "proper" race event that feeds your "accomplishments" and is intelligently rewarding.

What ever happened to enjoying a really fun weekend with friends that feeds our fantasies --well not all of them, but those are for another web site--- and boils the blood. Maybe our activity should be renamed Vintage Almost Racing and WE DON'T GIVE A SHIT WHAT ANYONE ELSE THINKS!

Top
#14517 - 04/13/18 12:10 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: WSR00]
dcb Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1029
The point of my post is that somethings eating away at amateur road racing - vintage and SCCA - and I believe it is being swallowed up by its own purposelessness. With vintage, it's an intentional "achievement" meant to appeal to a certain audience. With the SCCA, it's a kind of victimization brought on by the evolution of the automobile in ways that didn't fit the original paradigm.

I accept that the depth of one's involvement is totally up the individual, so if you want to be there for the party, have at it. But to me that's not worth the effort or time. Racing is a skill, car prep is a skill, tuning is a skill, and in those rare moments when it all works in harmony, I find that "intelligently rewarding". Yea, I know, it's a mouthful, but I couldn't think of a better way to express myself.

And actually WSR00, as long as you're asking, I have had a pretty good life, and it has been rewarding, and road racing has been a part of that... why do you seem to have a problem with that?

Dave Brown

Top
#14518 - 04/13/18 11:34 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: dcb]
Alfaromeo1 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 97
Loc: IL
Dave why are you wasting your time with this guy?

His post (which is his 2nd post on VRRF) has nothing to do with the topic of track time?
_________________________
Terry R. Stahly
Bloomington, IL 72 Alfa GTV 2000
Grp 8 VSCDA, SVRA, Midwest Counsel, HSR

www.stahly.com
www.4qte.com

Top
#14522 - 04/16/18 07:33 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: dcb]
Doug Meis Offline
Winner

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 401
Loc: NC
Originally Posted By: dcb
I accept that the depth of one's involvement is totally up the individual, so if you want to be there for the party, have at it. But to me that's not worth the effort or time. Racing is a skill, car prep is a skill, tuning is a skill, and in those rare moments when it all works in harmony, I find that "intelligently rewarding". Yea, I know, it's a mouthful, but I couldn't think of a better way to express myself.

Dave Brown


I think I understand the point you are trying to make. When a successful effort and maybe a race win requires that you put forward a superior effort of prepping, tuning and racing, it is rewarding and meaningful. Meaningful on a personal level and not to the wider world. The lack of rules stability and enforcement in vintage racing can make it frustratingly difficult to find that kind of competition. You need to have a core group of competitors that prepping to a high standard in a well defined class/group where the tuning and driving are also at a high standard. Succeeding in that environment is not easy.

It actually reminds me of the dialogue that precedes the famous "Racing is life" quote from "LeMans".

"Lisa Belgetti: When people risk their lives, shouldn't it be for something very important?

Michael Delaney: Well, it better be.

Lisa Belgetti: But what is so important about driving faster than anyone else?

Michael Delaney: Lotta people go through life doing things badly. Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting."

Driving around a race track and having a beer party is fine but anyone can do that "badly". DCB and I would not find that particularly rewarding or meaningful.


Edited by Doug Meis (04/16/18 08:46 AM)

Top
#14523 - 04/16/18 08:56 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Anonymous]
Alfaromeo1 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 97
Loc: IL
I am all about running up front and winning that is how I am wired which is not necessarly a good thing. It cost 3x as much to do so, you break down more often along with other frustrations one of which is often nobody to race with in your class at many events.

But I am also equally interested in the camaraderie part of the weekend which is equally important to me. Only 10% of your time is spent on the track so you better enjoy the people, helping others, learning from others and shooting the breeze, lauging etc.

Winning really doesnt mean squat and it means even less to anyone besides yourself, like next to nothing. I like to win but I also envy the guys running mid pack who are enjoying good battles too and winning is only fun when you are racing someone you have to be on your game to beat.

I am not 100% sure why I race and have tried to figure that out for a long time. It is a lot like golf in that its about not making mistakes, realizing you are not going to be perfect but seeing how well you can do. I measure and get a sense of pride when I learn how to move to the next skill level such as being smoother, more consistent, patient, carrying more exit speed, braking better racing others better etc.

It is especially fun when the car is running great, handling great, your driving at your best and you have good battles and racing going on and lastly at a big event that is kind of a win win all the way around. Those moments are elusive but remembered and treasured and induce a lot of pride when they happen.


Edited by Alfaromeo1 (04/16/18 09:25 AM)
_________________________
Terry R. Stahly
Bloomington, IL 72 Alfa GTV 2000
Grp 8 VSCDA, SVRA, Midwest Counsel, HSR

www.stahly.com
www.4qte.com

Top
#14524 - 04/16/18 10:01 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Anonymous]
Doug Meis Offline
Winner

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 401
Loc: NC
First, you're pretty much making my point when you talk about how satisfying it is when you do it well.

Second, I'm not knocking the beer parties or dismissing the importance of the social side. If you took out the social side and the friends I have made over the years, I wouldn't still be doing this.

Top
#14525 - 04/16/18 10:22 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Doug Meis]
Alfaromeo1 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 97
Loc: IL
I agree, personallyI dont care too much for the beer parties and other hoopla unless there is a good speaker from time to time. I meant just quality time during the day while you're sitting around. Most evenings I'm so tired from a long day we go get a beer and somethign to eat and skip the festivities, I can party at home.

While some enjoy tinkering and working on their cars all day I am not one of those. I/we do it when necessary but it's normally very minimal unless something breaks. May spend some time looking at data but generally don't even do that.

I prefer to meet new people, get to know others better, and get on my scooter and move around and shoot the breeze with ten or fifteen other racers I know who are scattered around the paddock.
_________________________
Terry R. Stahly
Bloomington, IL 72 Alfa GTV 2000
Grp 8 VSCDA, SVRA, Midwest Counsel, HSR

www.stahly.com
www.4qte.com

Top
#14526 - 04/16/18 06:58 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Anonymous]
V8vairmike Offline
Winner

Registered: 05/10/14
Posts: 444
Ive come to really enjoy racing with VDCA. I wish i could run more but for now its just once or twice a year.
Nice people to race with. Mike

Top
#14527 - 04/18/18 08:54 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Firebird]
Mike Clifford Offline
Amateur racer

Registered: 07/25/14
Posts: 112
Loc: Hopewell Junction, NY
Originally Posted By: Firebird
Originally Posted By: Mike Clifford


To that point, most young people simply can't afford vintage racing as it stands. One big way to help that is by allowing cars like early Miatas, E30s, and Mk1/2 Rabbits to compete. They're all approaching or exceeding 30 now, the first two at least have larger active racing organizations, and young people like them. It's no guarantee, but you get those guys attending, let them see these awesome older cars in action (and find out they aren't as slow as they look), and some may decide to "make the jump" in the future. It sure seems like a better plan than letting the sport die on the vine in 10 years.

This is coming from a guy with a shop where every car but his 240Z was built before 1970, so don't think I don't love the older stuff.


I've owned 1960's cars since I bought my first car in 1976, and I would consider a younger guy in Vintage racing as someone mid 30's to mid 40's now, and I was that younger guy a few years back.
Finding the money was the easy part, finding a sanction, class and car was the hard part. As a younger guy then, I did not want to build a 1968 car to 1968 specs, I wanted to build a 1968 car using "some" modern technology underneath but keep the period look.
Racing an exact period correct 1968 car has no appeal to me what so ever, I suspect most, not all, younger people feel the same way.
I appreciate and respect the pedigree cars that are raced as was back in it's day, and when Vintage racing started these cars were not that old, nor the driver, now the cars and drivers 50-60+ and you're asking younger people to build replica's or purchase period cars they have no connection to?
Do not require people to build or race exactly that unless they chose that particular class, give them a class in which to build something they can relate to better. There's a reason the paddocks are old and grey, and it's got little to do with money.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with two 1968 cars, one period correct, one period appearing, running in the same run group, but in a different class. 90% of the time we're just racing whoever's around us anyway.

I read recently were one Vintage sanction was now allowing 80's to early 90's cars in, minus the Miata, that will bring in some younger people, classes for the Fox Mustang and 3rd gen F would be great, but then the older period 1960's-70's cars will die along with their owners as they'll have no one to appeal to so long as strict period correct dictates who can run them.

On a side note. If you want to cut costs for building and racing some period class cars, get rid of the unlimited RPMs and require pump gas.
Unfortunately, by the time the old guard does yield I'll have sold off everything and headed to the home myself.


I'm curious to hear more about your opinion on this. What modern technology did you want to use but were unable to? Your point about different classes is fine with me to a point; silhouette racing kind of misses the boat on why a lot of people do this in my opinion, and would make the experience less unique than it is otherwise. I do agree the issue is relevance, though, hence my statement you quoted.

I had this idea yesterday and I wonder what effect it would have, if any:

Run/allow a class for cars like Miatas and E30s which mandates bias-ply tires. I think that would be a fun way for those guys to see the appeal of a more active, more vintage driving experience with a direct point of reference in their previous driving. I know that "sliding is fast" piece of the puzzle is where a lot of the fun comes from in my case, at least. Maybe it would help bridge that understanding gap a little.
_________________________
Interested in vintage cars and vintage racing? Photos, videos, our race schedule, and more can be found at www.michaelsvintageracing.com !

Top
#14528 - 04/20/18 09:53 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Mike Clifford]
dcb Offline
Legend

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 1029
Originally Posted By: Mike Clifford

I had this idea yesterday and I wonder what effect it would have, if any:

Run/allow a class for cars like Miatas and E30s which mandates bias-ply tires. I think that would be a fun way for those guys to see the appeal of a more active, more vintage driving experience with a direct point of reference in their previous driving. I know that "sliding is fast" piece of the puzzle is where a lot of the fun comes from in my case, at least. Maybe it would help bridge that understanding gap a little.


Mike,

I think you'd be surprised how little the difference between the "feel" of slicks and a good vintage legal tire is. Granted the slicks are faster, but the seat of the pants feel is not that different... at least in my experience. That said, the vintage tires are perhaps easier to "collect" if you get out of sorts... but not much.

While there is little doubt that Mazda and the Miata in particular have been the salvation of road racing in America, I see no reason in particular to give them yet another venue - they've plenty of ways to go racing. Those of us still trying to enjoy our old cars need to focus on what's important to make the most of our participation.

There is little doubt that vintage cars are disappearing from the bottom up, but there still is a healthy central core of 70s and 80s cars. Open the venue to them first. They exist in droves and sit largely idle because of some nonsensical belief that we must cling to a distant past that no one actually remembers any more.

I think the interest expressed in bringing currently legal Spridgets to the VSCDA 60th anniversary of the Sprite events - and VSCDA willingness to accept them - could be made to pay off with the introduction of these cars - and drivers - to vintage events.

Many of these drivers are looking for the next step with their cars as the more modern cars are not so slowly edging them out of being competitive in SCCA. And even if the drivers bail and get into a modern car, their cars will still be out there for someone to race vintage with... if universally allowed by the vintage organizations.

I think "harvesting" them first would be a better plan than worrying about creating another venue for the Miata.

Dave Brown

Top
#14535 - 04/27/18 01:05 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Anonymous]
Mike Clifford Offline
Amateur racer

Registered: 07/25/14
Posts: 112
Loc: Hopewell Junction, NY
That's interesting feedback about the tires; you're correct to assume I would not have expected that.

Also a fair point about the Miatas in general. I'm hoping the new rules in VRG for example will bring out the types of cars you're talking about; we'll see what effect it has in the long run.
_________________________
Interested in vintage cars and vintage racing? Photos, videos, our race schedule, and more can be found at www.michaelsvintageracing.com !

Top
#14552 - 05/18/18 02:47 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Mike Clifford]
Firebird Offline
Professional

Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 323

Quote:
I'm curious to hear more about your opinion on this. What modern technology did you want to use but were unable to? Your point about different classes is fine with me to a point; silhouette racing kind of misses the boat on why a lot of people do this in my opinion, and would make the experience less unique than it is otherwise. I do agree the issue is relevance, though, hence my statement you quoted.



My issue isn't just components.
Mostly I refer to Pony cars since that's what I run but some of the things I see in the paddock make me shake my head. On one hand I see cars running Tubular A-arms and coil over conversions but with 15" wheels and bias tires for the period look. Other cars I see OEM A-arms bent so bad to gain Camber I wouldn't trust them on a lawn mower. Guess which one is legal to run at 160 mph on a 50 year old 3000 lb car.

What's happened is cars are now being built that run much faster than "back in the day" but are still required to run the same antiquated chassis components.
The parts used back then were all they had, now we have much better and safer options.

Then I see some guys running 9000 rpm engines, that's well beyond what most racers can afford to build so in essence these guys bought the win before the rest of the field even shows up.
When I see fast cars and good drivers get lapped by cars in the same class in a Sprint race, something's not right in the rules.

I don't like but somewhat understand the 15" bias tire rule for appearance, but they're ridiculously expensive and don't last long.

As far as components I know some want to use: Rack and Pinion steering, Tube A-arms, coil overs, 17" wheels with R rated tires, bigger brakes, 4 link or torque link rear suspensions with coil overs, 5 speed tranny's, fuel injection.
Mind you, not one of these people will pretend to tell you they're period correct, but other than the wheel size, at a glance you wouldn't know it, but then virtually no Pony car is period correct anymore anyway, as was really run back in the day.

There just is no good place for 50 year old cars built like this to race, but IMO, the next generation will want to build just that, and so long as they have a Vintage appearance, paint, wheel type, no big wings, etc... they should race with the Vintage car Sanctions, just not in the same class as PC cars.




_________________________
Gordon Slingerland
http://outlaw-vintage-racing.com/

Top
#14553 - 05/18/18 08:24 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Firebird]
Alfaromeo1 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 97
Loc: IL
I can only comment on grp 1, 2/3 depending upon what series and group 8 which I consider vintage sports cars.

I agree safer brakes, suspension components should be allowed I have had several friends hurt and badly damaged cars when their brakes failed. I have not seen in the above mentioned groups but safety is number one. It seems to be more prevelent in purpose built race cars, Trans Am and other faster groups. I decided awhile back I do not want to run a car that brakes at the 1 or 2 marker I want a a chance if there is an issue of not crashing.

A good friend pointed out that all a faster car does unless you are talking about sports racers that handle better is higher straightaway speeds but the corner speeds are not much different so what is the point unless you are caught up in lap times.

Since very few cars on the grid are PC anymore they just need to look fairly or pretty PC. They need to have correct displacements, heads, number of gears no sequential if not used in the day, weights, track, tire widths and profiles, flares air dams and other aero similar to in the day. Weight can be adjusted up or down to keep the playing field level as they do with Alfa's vs Datsun 510's and let people have fun.

If a car or a marque is winning all the races they need to be reigned in somehow through weight or whatever because it is not fun, fair or good racing. Same applies to a marque that is not competitive at all, they need some help IMO.

Tires are a problem since they are not available in all sizes but an effort to use suitable tires that last longer to keep the costs down would be helpful to all but tire dealers. My Toyo RA1's last for fifteen race weekends and seem to get faster as they wear down. Other tires are only at their best for a weekend. That can easily save many thousands of dollars a year which should translate into more racers or at least racers participating in more events.

Different tire rules for different series is another matter which needs to be addressed for higher car counts. How many people are going to buy a set of tires for one race? How many do not enter races because they would have to buy a set of tires they would only use for one weekend? It doesn't make sense.

If a person is only going to run one event per year with some of the larger series who race all over, let them race. Every series needs more cars and racers needs more cars to race against, it promotes better racing and race events. Most of these potential entries are not going to be on the podium anyway except when the car count is low sometines only one or two sadly in a class so who could possibly care and why?






Edited by Alfaromeo1 (05/21/18 04:27 PM)
_________________________
Terry R. Stahly
Bloomington, IL 72 Alfa GTV 2000
Grp 8 VSCDA, SVRA, Midwest Counsel, HSR

www.stahly.com
www.4qte.com

Top
#14566 - 06/20/18 01:03 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Firebird]
Mike Clifford Offline
Amateur racer

Registered: 07/25/14
Posts: 112
Loc: Hopewell Junction, NY
Originally Posted By: Firebird


My issue isn't just components.
Mostly I refer to Pony cars since that's what I run but some of the things I see in the paddock make me shake my head. On one hand I see cars running Tubular A-arms and coil over conversions but with 15" wheels and bias tires for the period look. Other cars I see OEM A-arms bent so bad to gain Camber I wouldn't trust them on a lawn mower. Guess which one is legal to run at 160 mph on a 50 year old 3000 lb car.

What's happened is cars are now being built that run much faster than "back in the day" but are still required to run the same antiquated chassis components.
The parts used back then were all they had, now we have much better and safer options.

Then I see some guys running 9000 rpm engines, that's well beyond what most racers can afford to build so in essence these guys bought the win before the rest of the field even shows up.
When I see fast cars and good drivers get lapped by cars in the same class in a Sprint race, something's not right in the rules.

I don't like but somewhat understand the 15" bias tire rule for appearance, but they're ridiculously expensive and don't last long.

As far as components I know some want to use: Rack and Pinion steering, Tube A-arms, coil overs, 17" wheels with R rated tires, bigger brakes, 4 link or torque link rear suspensions with coil overs, 5 speed tranny's, fuel injection.
Mind you, not one of these people will pretend to tell you they're period correct, but other than the wheel size, at a glance you wouldn't know it, but then virtually no Pony car is period correct anymore anyway, as was really run back in the day.

There just is no good place for 50 year old cars built like this to race, but IMO, the next generation will want to build just that, and so long as they have a Vintage appearance, paint, wheel type, no big wings, etc... they should race with the Vintage car Sanctions, just not in the same class as PC cars.


Don't get me started on over-prepared pony cars, heh.

I guess my answer to your first point is bend OEM A-arms shouldn't pass tech. I'm not specifically familiar, but with some of our cars there just isn't particular adjustment. Not ideal, but that's how it was and consequentially how it still is.

I agree virtually everything is significantly faster than when new. I can't tell you how many stress cracks we've fixed in spaceframe chassis over the years as a result of higher loads. In and of itself, I don't think that's an issue; I suppose for me, the issue appears when the car has departed obviously from its origins. For example, one of our customers had an Elva Mk7S. It still used a Lotus Twin Cam, it still used the original brakes, original suspension, original wheels, etc. Sure, the tires are probably wider now, and likely a bit stickier. That being said, the car was still very much representative of the original. I'd argue fabricated suspension and things not available at the time (safety equipment being the exception!) are kinda...I dunno, unfortunate. To me, a lot of the fun of this sport is experiencing the cars as they were. Clearly that's not the only approach, and there's nothing wrong with a difference of opinion there. Classing could solve that problem for virtually everyone, I think.

We did also have a customer sell his Brabham BT21 because he wasn't willing to chuck $15-20k at a hand grenade engine to keep up with the leaders. That's definitely an unfortunate situation, but it's hard for me to say it should be banned. Like suspension prep, classing can separate those cars (at least on paper). Not satisfying for everyone, but nothing is. I do think those engines you're talking about--as cool as they sound as they go by--really don't make any sense in context.

That list is partially out of my realm of expertise, so I'll bring it back into my context: Would our Lotus Cortina be more competitive with radials and coilovers, maybe some extra links in the rear? Well sure. Would it be nearly as cool to me? Not remotely.

I believe expecting cars to be exactly period correct is silly at this point. It's just not going to happen, and in a lot of cases it's not that big a deal. My belief is the goal should be a car with all the main features and characteristics of the original, but with an allowance for particular improvements.

I'm curious about the "next generation" argument; why would people, say, my age be any less receptive to enjoying a historic car the way it was originally run (within the description I gave)? I enjoy the hell out of it, and I don't think any number of LS swaps or disc brakes would make things better. I think education and exposure would be and are very helpful tools in this area.


Originally Posted By: Alfaromeo1
I can only comment on grp 1, 2/3 depending upon what series and group 8 which I consider vintage sports cars.

I agree safer brakes, suspension components should be allowed I have had several friends hurt and badly damaged cars when their brakes failed. I have not seen in the above mentioned groups but safety is number one. It seems to be more prevelent in purpose built race cars, Trans Am and other faster groups. I decided awhile back I do not want to run a car that brakes at the 1 or 2 marker I want a a chance if there is an issue of not crashing.

A good friend pointed out that all a faster car does unless you are talking about sports racers that handle better is higher straightaway speeds but the corner speeds are not much different so what is the point unless you are caught up in lap times.

Since very few cars on the grid are PC anymore they just need to look fairly or pretty PC. They need to have correct displacements, heads, number of gears no sequential if not used in the day, weights, track, tire widths and profiles, flares air dams and other aero similar to in the day. Weight can be adjusted up or down to keep the playing field level as they do with Alfa's vs Datsun 510's and let people have fun.

If a car or a marque is winning all the races they need to be reigned in somehow through weight or whatever because it is not fun, fair or good racing. Same applies to a marque that is not competitive at all, they need some help IMO.

Tires are a problem since they are not available in all sizes but an effort to use suitable tires that last longer to keep the costs down would be helpful to all but tire dealers. My Toyo RA1's last for fifteen race weekends and seem to get faster as they wear down. Other tires are only at their best for a weekend. That can easily save many thousands of dollars a year which should translate into more racers or at least racers participating in more events.

Different tire rules for different series is another matter which needs to be addressed for higher car counts. How many people are going to buy a set of tires for one race? How many do not enter races because they would have to buy a set of tires they would only use for one weekend? It doesn't make sense.

If a person is only going to run one event per year with some of the larger series who race all over, let them race. Every series needs more cars and racers needs more cars to race against, it promotes better racing and race events. Most of these potential entries are not going to be on the podium anyway except when the car count is low sometines only one or two sadly in a class so who could possibly care and why?



Absolutely agree safety comes first. I'm first in line to say it's ridiculous to let pre-war cars run without CORRECT roll structures, HANS devices, and arm restraints, even though it "doesn't look right."

I'll have to disagree with your friend. A faster car that's only faster on the straights is not a very well-built car. All cars can gain time in cornering and braking with proper setup and driving. Besides, aren't we all caught up in lap times? smile

We've been...privy to weight used to balance cars competitively a number of times and it can help to a point. I do also support the idea of helping less competitive cars stand a better chance, but only if those adjustments keep with the spirit I mentioned above.

Tires are a complicated topic. I'm really biased (hah) because I feel like radials are a bit of a cheater pick. That being said, it's been mentioned in this thread they aren't that much better than the bias plies sold these days, so maybe that's moot. The extra longevity is a big advantage for sure, and a major money suck for the older-type tires. I feel most groups use basically the same tire rules at least, so that helps a racer pick something he can use wherever he wants to go.
_________________________
Interested in vintage cars and vintage racing? Photos, videos, our race schedule, and more can be found at www.michaelsvintageracing.com !

Top
#14569 - 06/20/18 11:13 AM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Mike Clifford]
Alfaromeo1 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 97
Loc: IL
Wow we have a post or two I do not want to see this forum or the new site when he gets it finished go away.

I agree with most of what you say also but I wanted to clarify the faster in the straights comment I made. I really did not explain the context of what I meant well.

The conversation consisted of me saying it wouldn't it be neat if they let us Alfa GTV guys run a 250hp Twin Spark? His comment was pretty much spot on because my car which I would say handles as good as any GTV out there will not go any faster in the corners or brake any better with a gob more horsepower.

What he said was correct with more hp the only thing I would gain is more straightaway speed and a couple seconds off my lap time. However I would no longer be mixing it up and having fun with the rest of the Alfa's and 510's so whats more important a lower lap time or having fun and doing battle.

I would quickly tire of that and probably stop racing after a year. I have done that in other forms of racing and when it gets to the point that all you have to do is open the throttle to pass others that is not racing anymore.

I just started racing vintage 11 years ago so I am not hung up on period correct as some of the old timers and never have been. I think as time goes on all but the die hards which are fading in numbers will prefer better, more reliable, safer components where they make sense.

Its not like we have engine regs that require stock orignal parts we have motors putting out double what they did from the factory with greatly advanced everything other than the block and head castings.

I think most want the cars to look fairly similar to what they were in the day but only to a point. If we can cut tire costs by using radials or slightly different tire aspect ratios I am all for it. I don't want to see extra wide goofy looking tires but I have never felt a 225/50/15 or 14 looks odd on a Alfa GTV. However if you dropped the profile to 35 and went wider that would look stupid as hell.


Edited by Alfaromeo1 (06/20/18 12:44 PM)
_________________________
Terry R. Stahly
Bloomington, IL 72 Alfa GTV 2000
Grp 8 VSCDA, SVRA, Midwest Counsel, HSR

www.stahly.com
www.4qte.com

Top
#14570 - 06/25/18 11:46 PM Re: TRACK TIME [Re: Anonymous]
Mike Clifford Offline
Amateur racer

Registered: 07/25/14
Posts: 112
Loc: Hopewell Junction, NY
Ah, that makes sense then. I agree that wouldn't be any fun, and does talk to the earlier comments about those who buy speed with a bigger motor. My new 240Z is pretty lacking in the horsepower department, but I'm excited about that because it'll force me to drive it better.

If there were radials that slid like bias plies do, I'd be all for it. I feel like those relatively huge slip angles are a big part of what make vintage racing unique both to participate in and to watch, but I can understand if other aren't as concerned with that. I agree low profile tires would be ridiculous.

To your point about more reliable components, I agree. I test drove a Lola Mk1 this past weekend which uses a Taylor dogbox. Is it original? No. Does it mean the gearbox lasts more than a weekend? Yes. You can't even tell it's different from the outside. Same goes for safety equipment, ignition bits (save crank fire), and brakes if the originals were really terrible. I don't like swapping original drums for discs if they weren't an available option.
_________________________
Interested in vintage cars and vintage racing? Photos, videos, our race schedule, and more can be found at www.michaelsvintageracing.com !

Top
Page 5 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5

VARA News
Who's Online
2 registered (JFW, TopGearTech), 210 Guests and 5 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Bosco, Nick6981, Scaniasteve, JuanBecker, 1000beats
757 Registered Users